Discussion:
OT: Prejudice/Racism
(too old to reply)
John_Brian_K
2007-11-30 15:44:07 UTC
Permalink
Hello All,

A subject that I have been thinking about for a while. I wanted to
put the words down and see if it sparks some conversation.

Now to me the biggest difference between being prejudice and being
racist is the hate. I have not looked up the formal definitions, but
I think this is the case in the formal definitions as well. And while
prejudice IMO can apply to something other than people I still think
it has its roots in people.

So what makes someone have prejudice against a group? I was thinking
about it a bit and was honest with myself and realized I have certain
prejudices. I also realized that if certain events were to occur I
could also form other prejudices. Now could these prejudices not
encompass the group they were held towards? I would say yes, but does
that change the fact the the prejudice exists?

A couple examples:

I drive quite a bit for work (not that much currently because my car
has been acting up and I dont trust it), but even back and forth to
work for me is about a 40 minute drive. Something that bothers me
when I drive is people who tailgate or drive up really fast and then
change lanes right before they get to the car in front of them. This
bothers me because it is dangerous and there is no reason for it. I
notice a certain group do this more than others so I tend to have a
prejudice towards that group because of this reason.

Does that example fall into a pet peve or a strong opinion? I do not
think so because it involves a certain group of people AND I notice
that group. Why would I notice something like that? Is it because it
is a consistent pattern and the mind looks for patterns in
everything? Or is it because I had a prejudice towards this group for
other reasons and use this example to affirm that prejudice?

Now if I were racist towards that group I think I would use that fact
to justify an action to prevent it. Is racism nothing more than
prejudice that takes negative action? Now 'action' could be physical
action or it could mean verbal action. I think everyone is familiar
with a person who has either a hatred or is racist against a certain
group and may have heard someone verbalize that hatred.

I bring this up because I have befriended someone who is very
different from me in many ways. Different culture, a 'slight'
language barrier etc. I have been very accommodating and have given
my friendship unconditionaly, but cannot help but wonder what would
happen if my friendship was taken advantage of. Would I look at it in
the sense that 'well this group must be like this because I gave
unconditionaly and this person took advantage what would happen if I
didnt even KNOW that person?' Does that make us look upon others with
skepticism, trepidation....fear?

How many chances do you give a group of people that have the same
beliefs before you become so wary that you decide to not try anymore?

How long is it going to be before we look past the 'group' and see the
person? Will it ALWAYS be like this until these 'groups' start
melting together and acting in similiar ways? I am fairly confident
that people are going to think of examples where this was attempted in
a non natural way ie Hitler trying to get everyone to 'look the same'
this is nowhere near what I am trying to say, but rather a natural
evolution that will eventually have all 'groups' of people thinking
and acting in a way that is helpful to EVERYONE.

I grew up in a pretty diverse neighborhood and had friends of many
different groups. Some of these groups I have certain prejudices
towards to this day because of my experience, but I also still have
friends that are in those groups to this day. Why is it that I can
still have friends with a group of people I have certain prejudices
towards while others turn that prejudice to hatred/racism? Is it
because the acts that were performed by these groups upon me were not
as bad as the acts that were acted upon towards others and that makes
it more difficult to just move on?

If someone repeatedly gets robbed by the same 'group' of people over
and over and over, will that person have a chance to forgive and
forget? How much tollerance can one person have?

Is defeatism/despair worse than racism?
j***@yahoo.com
2007-11-30 17:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by John_Brian_K
Hello All,
A subject that I have been thinking about for a while. I wanted to
put the words down and see if it sparks some conversation.
Now to me the biggest difference between being prejudice and being
racist is the hate. I have not looked up the formal definitions, but
I think this is the case in the formal definitions as well. And while
prejudice IMO can apply to something other than people I still think
it has its roots in people.
So what makes someone have prejudice against a group? I was thinking
about it a bit and was honest with myself and realized I have certain
prejudices. I also realized that if certain events were to occur I
could also form other prejudices. Now could these prejudices not
encompass the group they were held towards? I would say yes, but does
that change the fact the the prejudice exists?
I drive quite a bit for work (not that much currently because my car
has been acting up and I dont trust it), but even back and forth to
work for me is about a 40 minute drive. Something that bothers me
when I drive is people who tailgate or drive up really fast and then
change lanes right before they get to the car in front of them. This
bothers me because it is dangerous and there is no reason for it. I
notice a certain group do this more than others so I tend to have a
prejudice towards that group because of this reason.
Does that example fall into a pet peve or a strong opinion? I do not
think so because it involves a certain group of people AND I notice
that group. Why would I notice something like that? Is it because it
is a consistent pattern and the mind looks for patterns in
everything? Or is it because I had a prejudice towards this group for
other reasons and use this example to affirm that prejudice?
Now if I were racist towards that group I think I would use that fact
to justify an action to prevent it. Is racism nothing more than
prejudice that takes negative action? Now 'action' could be physical
action or it could mean verbal action. I think everyone is familiar
with a person who has either a hatred or is racist against a certain
group and may have heard someone verbalize that hatred.
I bring this up because I have befriended someone who is very
different from me in many ways. Different culture, a 'slight'
language barrier etc. I have been very accommodating and have given
my friendship unconditionaly, but cannot help but wonder what would
happen if my friendship was taken advantage of. Would I look at it in
the sense that 'well this group must be like this because I gave
unconditionaly and this person took advantage what would happen if I
didnt even KNOW that person?' Does that make us look upon others with
skepticism, trepidation....fear?
How many chances do you give a group of people that have the same
beliefs before you become so wary that you decide to not try anymore?
How long is it going to be before we look past the 'group' and see the
person? Will it ALWAYS be like this until these 'groups' start
melting together and acting in similiar ways? I am fairly confident
that people are going to think of examples where this was attempted in
a non natural way ie Hitler trying to get everyone to 'look the same'
this is nowhere near what I am trying to say, but rather a natural
evolution that will eventually have all 'groups' of people thinking
and acting in a way that is helpful to EVERYONE.
I grew up in a pretty diverse neighborhood and had friends of many
different groups. Some of these groups I have certain prejudices
towards to this day because of my experience, but I also still have
friends that are in those groups to this day. Why is it that I can
still have friends with a group of people I have certain prejudices
towards while others turn that prejudice to hatred/racism? Is it
because the acts that were performed by these groups upon me were not
as bad as the acts that were acted upon towards others and that makes
it more difficult to just move on?
If someone repeatedly gets robbed by the same 'group' of people over
and over and over, will that person have a chance to forgive and
forget? How much tollerance can one person have?
Is defeatism/despair worse than racism?
There is no reason for prejudice or racism, mostly because I find
there are plenty of other reasons to dislike a person on an individual
level.

With prejudice, you're litrally pre-judging someone, which means that
you don't allow yourself an opportunity to find a real reason to
dislike that person, whether they be white, black, brown, male, female
(or 1/2 and 1/2), etc.. Trust me, it's there - you just have to apply
yourself. There are no short-cuts in life.

(Does sarcasm come across in posts?) ;)

In seriousness, prejudice and racism are two sides of the same coin.
With one (prejudice) you pre-judge someone, good or bad. With racism,
you (obviously) literaly think that one race is superior to another.
In other words, a racist is a fricking moron, while a prejudiced
person is "just" easily swayed by sterotypes and the herd mentality -
in other words, they don't think for themselves.

Odds are someone will pipe up and defend some forms of prejudice or
profiling with the old "I don't see anyone but Arabs blowing up
planes" argument, but the obvious problem with that (even if it is
true) is just plain logic. Just because all Xs are Ys does not mean
all Ys are Xs.

That having been said, I think it is human nature to notice patters in
people - but there's a difference between seeing a pattern and using
that pattern as dispositive without entertaining other possibilities.
For example, if you see an old white guy in a Bentley in the Hamptons,
you assume guess he's an investment banker, because you've seen
pictures of old, white, men who are IBs in Bentleys in the Hamptons
for years. But you see a young black man in a Bentley on South Beach
and you assume what? Why? Maybe beacuse every third video on MTV is
some rapper driving a Continental GT on South Beach? Well, the old
white dude may in fact be a drug dealer, and the young black dude may
have skipped 4 grades in school, finished college in 2 years,
graduated from Wharton in 1 and now be an EVP at Morgan Stanley.
That's the problem with prejudice - you now decide how you're going to
interact with these two people based on a pure guess of who and what
they are based on their looks - and that's going to come back and bite
you one day.

So prejudice is, in many respects, used as a lazy person's shorthand
to make a judgement about someone without taking the time to figure
out if it's a valid judgement. In poker lingo, they are working with
incomplete information, just this time as a result of their own
choosing.
O-PGManager
2007-11-30 17:19:11 UTC
Permalink
nice post

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Chris in Texas
2007-11-30 17:25:02 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 30 2007 11:01 AM, ***@yahoo.com wrote:

< snip excellent descriptions >
Post by j***@yahoo.com
So prejudice is, in many respects, used as a lazy person's shorthand
to make a judgement about someone without taking the time to figure
out if it's a valid judgement. In poker lingo, they are working with
incomplete information, just this time as a result of their own
choosing.
Nice explanation - I do have a question, though.  If racism is defined
as believing that one race is superior to another or others, what's the term for
someone that doesn't necessarily prejudge others based on their race or
ethnicity but does recognize that there are patterns and differences between the
races and that there is some basis in truth for stereotypes (like your Bentley
example). 

Chris




**************************************************
Out on the road today,
I saw a Deadhead sticker on a Cadillac
- Don Henley



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FellKnight
2007-11-30 23:10:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris in Texas
< snip excellent descriptions >
Post by j***@yahoo.com
So prejudice is, in many respects, used as a lazy person's shorthand
to make a judgement about someone without taking the time to figure
out if it's a valid judgement. In poker lingo, they are working with
incomplete information, just this time as a result of their own
choosing.
Nice explanation - I do have a question, though. If racism is defined
as believing that one race is superior to another or others, what's the term
for
Post by Chris in Texas
someone that doesn't necessarily prejudge others based on their race or
ethnicity but does recognize that there are patterns and differences between the
races and that there is some basis in truth for stereotypes (like your
Bentley
Post by Chris in Texas
example).
Chris
Politically incorrect?

Fell

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Chris in Texas
2007-12-01 01:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Post by Chris in Texas
< snip excellent descriptions >
Post by j***@yahoo.com
So prejudice is, in many respects, used as a lazy person's shorthand
to make a judgement about someone without taking the time to figure
out if it's a valid judgement. In poker lingo, they are working with
incomplete information, just this time as a result of their own
choosing.
Nice explanation - I do have a question, though. If racism is defined
as believing that one race is superior to another or others, what's the term
for
Post by Chris in Texas
someone that doesn't necessarily prejudge others based on their race or
ethnicity but does recognize that there are patterns and differences between
the
Post by Chris in Texas
races and that there is some basis in truth for stereotypes (like your
Bentley
Post by Chris in Texas
example).
Chris
Politically incorrect?
Nah, I'm proudly politically incorrect.

I'm pretty sure prejudice and stereotyping are the key words, to a certain
degree, as JBK and Tanya said.

Chris


**************************************************
Out on the road today,
I saw a Deadhead sticker on a Cadillac
- Don Henley



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John_Brian_K
2007-11-30 17:40:51 UTC
Permalink
Nice explanation - I do have a question, though. If racism is defined
as believing that one race is superior to another or others, what's the term for
someone that doesn't necessarily prejudge others based on their race or
ethnicity but does recognize that there are patterns and differences between the
races and that there is some basis in truth for stereotypes (like your Bentley
example).
It will ALWAYS be a prejudice when part of the description involves
the 'type or group' of people. When the person or group is removed
from the equation it is called ...................
Chris in Texas
2007-11-30 17:44:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by John_Brian_K
Nice explanation - I do have a question, though. If racism is defined
as believing that one race is superior to another or others, what's the term for
someone that doesn't necessarily prejudge others based on their race or
ethnicity but does recognize that there are patterns and differences between the
races and that there is some basis in truth for stereotypes (like your Bentley
example).
It will ALWAYS be a prejudice when part of the description involves
the 'type or group' of people.
Good point. 


**************************************************
Out on the road today,
I saw a Deadhead sticker on a Cadillac
- Don Henley



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Tanya AKA MissT74
2007-11-30 18:48:35 UTC
Permalink
The word you're looking for is "stereotyping"

T
Post by Chris in Texas
Post by John_Brian_K
Nice explanation - I do have a question, though. If racism is defined
as believing that one race is superior to another or others, what's the
term
for
someone that doesn't necessarily prejudge others based on their race or
ethnicity but does recognize that there are patterns and differences
between
the
races and that there is some basis in truth for stereotypes (like your Bentley
example).
It will ALWAYS be a prejudice when part of the description involves
the 'type or group' of people.
Good point. 
**************************************************
Out on the road today,
I saw a Deadhead sticker on a Cadillac
- Don Henley
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j***@yahoo.com
2007-11-30 18:06:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by John_Brian_K
Nice explanation - I do have a question, though. If racism is defined
as believing that one race is superior to another or others, what's the term for
someone that doesn't necessarily prejudge others based on their race or
ethnicity but does recognize that there are patterns and differences between the
races and that there is some basis in truth for stereotypes (like your Bentley
example).
It will ALWAYS be a prejudice when part of the description involves
the 'type or group' of people. When the person or group is removed
from the equation it is called ...................
Thanks.I'd agree with JBK on his answer. As a matter of semantics, I
don't think you can "recognize patters and differences" without
calling it prejudice, since that is what the word means. Of course,
the world is what it is, and when you see someone and think they fit a
pattern because that's what's been drilled into your head for years by
society at large - "Oh, he's a rich young black man - he must be a
drug dealer or a rapper" - I don't think it's necessarily a failing
UNLESS you lend credence to that stereotype by assuming it's true and
acting accordingly. IMHO, the problem is not in thinking something
that you really can't control as far as it occuring to you as an
initial reaction, due to societal influences, it's lending weight to
that characterization by not recognizing it for what it is and
dismissing it.

Of course there is SOME truth to any sterotype, in that there are some
rich young black men who are, indeed, drug dealers or rappers. The
problem is expanding that fact to the larger group. Unless at least a
majority of the people of a group exhibit some trait, then you're
making a logical error by assuming that THIS person has that trait
just because some people in his "group" have it. Of course, even if a
majority do have that trait, you're still pre-judging, or "profiling"
if that is a less divisive word in this instance, but at least it has
some logical basis.

But this has two problems:

First, you have to determine if it is a logical progression (they are
X BECAUSE they are Y), or just happenstance; at which point you get
into the whole nature vs. nurture argument, which is a whole other
kettle of fish.

But the second, and bigger, problem is the fact that you are still
seeing that person as something (good, bad, criminal, law-abiding,
etc.) based on one thing (e.g., skin color), and not taking into
account over evidence, such as his character, other actions, etc.
Again, that's laziness masquerading as objective truth.
John_Brian_K
2007-11-30 18:36:08 UTC
Permalink
I really wish you would have looked at the 'meaning' of the post
rather than comment on my failure at giving a solid example and
picking it a part.
Post by bonkey
Mybe you should learn to drive. Driving slow in the left lane if bad, and
illegal in some places (it is illegal where I live in Texas). When someone comes
up behind you it is your obligation to move to the right and not force the other
driver to go around you on the right.
lol I can imagine what you may be thinking. An old man going 40 in
the fast lane. I am a relatively young guy who has had some run ins
with the law regarding speeding tickets so by no means am I holding up
traffic and very rarely to I drive in the 'fast lane'. So in your
infinite wisdom based off my observations of people speeding right up
on you and then getting in the next lane (notice the word next not
right) your recomendation is to 'move to the right and not force the
other driver to go around' I wonder what would happen if I moved to
the next lane when I notice someone speeding up on me when in all
probability they will get over to pass. Hmmmmm
Post by bonkey
It's obvious that you don't have enough discipline to look up the definitions of
words or the rules of the road. Your prejudice against intelligence is alarming
and so I must descriminate against you and kill file you.
<PLOINK>
lol I have no retort.
John_Brian_K
2007-11-30 18:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tanya AKA MissT74
The word you're looking for is "stereotyping"
Thanks. Do you have any thoughts on the subject?
Tanya AKA MissT74
2007-11-30 19:02:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tanya AKA MissT74
The word you're looking for is "stereotyping"
Thanks. Do you have any thoughts on the subject?
On stereotyping? Yeah. People do it. It will always be done. Sometimes it's the
right thing to do (Think 9/11), and although you'll find yourself "wrong" for
"stereotyping" or "prejudging" someone, and that they're actually different then
from what you thought they might be,  I actually think the percentages are
higher for people being correct vs. being wrong as people tend to live up to
their stereotype.

T




 

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doggystyle
2007-11-30 20:53:13 UTC
Permalink
YOU GO GIRL!!!
Post by Tanya AKA MissT74
Post by Tanya AKA MissT74
The word you're looking for is "stereotyping"
Thanks. Do you have any thoughts on the subject?
On stereotyping? Yeah. People do it. It will always be done. Sometimes it's the
right thing to do (Think 9/11), and although you'll find yourself "wrong" for
"stereotyping" or "prejudging" someone, and that they're actually different then
from what you thought they might be,  I actually think the percentages are
higher for people being correct vs. being wrong as people tend to live up to
their stereotype.
T
 
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bonkey
2007-11-30 18:26:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by John_Brian_K
I drive quite a bit for work (not that much currently because my car
has been acting up and I dont trust it), but even back and forth to
work for me is about a 40 minute drive. Something that bothers me
when I drive is people who tailgate or drive up really fast and then
change lanes right before they get to the car in front of them. This
bothers me because it is dangerous and there is no reason for it. I
notice a certain group do this more than others so I tend to have a
prejudice towards that group because of this reason.
Mybe you should learn to drive. Driving slow in the left lane if bad, and
illegal in some places (it is illegal where I live in Texas). When someone comes
up behind you it is your obligation to move to the right and not force the other
driver to go around you on the right.

It's obvious that you don't have enough discipline to look up the definitions of
words or the rules of the road. Your prejudice against intelligence is alarming
and so I must descriminate against you and kill file you.

<PLOINK>
--

Bonkey
"Jodie Foster held two pair, Bach had three of a kind. Gandhi said, 'With my
full house, I will blow your mind'" --They Might be Giants



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Chris in Texas
2007-11-30 19:55:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by bonkey
Mybe you should learn to drive. Driving slow in the left lane if bad, and
illegal in some places (it is illegal where I live in Texas). When someone comes
up behind you it is your obligation to move to the right and not force the other
driver to go around you on the right.
Disagree partly with this - there are now certain multi-lane highways in Texas
that are marked "Left lane for passing only", and that's fairly recent.

And I agree, if you're travelling slower than others you should not be in the
left lane.  But if I'm travelling 75 in the left lane and the speed limit is 75
and there's a string of cars in the right lane doing 70 then I have no
obligation to move to the right if someone going faster than I am comes up
behind me.  I don't see why I need to be slowed down in that instance. 
(granted, I usually will move over out of courtesy if I can without getting
stuck behind a very slow line of vehicles, but don't feel an obligation to do
so).  This is especially true when there's a line of trucks in the right lane
going slower than I am.

Chris

**************************************************
Out on the road today,
I saw a Deadhead sticker on a Cadillac
- Don Henley



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TimSully
2007-11-30 18:33:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by John_Brian_K
Hello All,
A subject that I have been thinking about for a while. I wanted to
put the words down and see if it sparks some conversation.
Now to me the biggest difference between being prejudice and being
racist is the hate. I have not looked up the formal definitions, but
I think this is the case in the formal definitions as well. And while
prejudice IMO can apply to something other than people I still think
it has its roots in people.
So what makes someone have prejudice against a group? I was thinking
about it a bit and was honest with myself and realized I have certain
prejudices. I also realized that if certain events were to occur I
could also form other prejudices. Now could these prejudices not
encompass the group they were held towards? I would say yes, but does
that change the fact the the prejudice exists?
I drive quite a bit for work (not that much currently because my car
has been acting up and I dont trust it), but even back and forth to
work for me is about a 40 minute drive. Something that bothers me
when I drive is people who tailgate or drive up really fast and then
change lanes right before they get to the car in front of them. This
bothers me because it is dangerous and there is no reason for it. I
notice a certain group do this more than others so I tend to have a
prejudice towards that group because of this reason.
Does that example fall into a pet peve or a strong opinion? I do not
think so because it involves a certain group of people AND I notice
that group. Why would I notice something like that? Is it because it
is a consistent pattern and the mind looks for patterns in
everything? Or is it because I had a prejudice towards this group for
other reasons and use this example to affirm that prejudice?
Now if I were racist towards that group I think I would use that fact
to justify an action to prevent it. Is racism nothing more than
prejudice that takes negative action? Now 'action' could be physical
action or it could mean verbal action. I think everyone is familiar
with a person who has either a hatred or is racist against a certain
group and may have heard someone verbalize that hatred.
I bring this up because I have befriended someone who is very
different from me in many ways. Different culture, a 'slight'
language barrier etc. I have been very accommodating and have given
my friendship unconditionaly, but cannot help but wonder what would
happen if my friendship was taken advantage of. Would I look at it in
the sense that 'well this group must be like this because I gave
unconditionaly and this person took advantage what would happen if I
didnt even KNOW that person?' Does that make us look upon others with
skepticism, trepidation....fear?
How many chances do you give a group of people that have the same
beliefs before you become so wary that you decide to not try anymore?
How long is it going to be before we look past the 'group' and see the
person? Will it ALWAYS be like this until these 'groups' start
melting together and acting in similiar ways? I am fairly confident
that people are going to think of examples where this was attempted in
a non natural way ie Hitler trying to get everyone to 'look the same'
this is nowhere near what I am trying to say, but rather a natural
evolution that will eventually have all 'groups' of people thinking
and acting in a way that is helpful to EVERYONE.
I grew up in a pretty diverse neighborhood and had friends of many
different groups. Some of these groups I have certain prejudices
towards to this day because of my experience, but I also still have
friends that are in those groups to this day. Why is it that I can
still have friends with a group of people I have certain prejudices
towards while others turn that prejudice to hatred/racism? Is it
because the acts that were performed by these groups upon me were not
as bad as the acts that were acted upon towards others and that makes
it more difficult to just move on?
If someone repeatedly gets robbed by the same 'group' of people over
and over and over, will that person have a chance to forgive and
forget? How much tollerance can one person have?
Is defeatism/despair worse than racism?
Dude, just get a T-shirt that says "I mace Black People" and wear it
over your coat every day and be done with it.
John_Brian_K
2007-11-30 18:50:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by TimSully
Dude, just get a T-shirt that says "I mace Black People" and wear it
over your coat every day and be done with it.- Hide quoted text -
lol

Did you see that episode of Runs house where Kid Rock was wearing a
shirt that said "I Love Black People'? Kid rock is local and while I
dont watch that show they talked about it on the radio this morning.
For those who do not know him though Kid Rock is a good guy and has a
big heart.

I never mentioned race nor did I specify any group. A little FYI
Tim. I live in Dearborn, MI which is the largest population of Arabs
outside of the Middle East and about 10 minutes away from Dowtown
DETROIT which has a majority African American population and I live
about 15 minutes away from 'Mexican Town', 'Greektown' and 'Poletown'
as well.

Basically what I am saying is that I live in a very diverse area and
have small prejudices against all of them.

To expound on that last statement: Like Johnny and Chris were
discussing it IS a mistake to think that just because the majority of
a certain group may act in a certain way the mind has no choice but to
make the corelation if its experience is the same more than it is
not. And while I say 'prejudices against all of them' please do not
misinterpret that to mean I dislike any of those 'groups' I do not,
but rather have what I call prejudices or view them prejudicialy as in
if I see a Mexican dude in Mexicantown I know with a high probability
that he works in one of the restaurants in that area. That is not
'bad' it is a characterization which I kind of put in the prejudice
file because I will make an assumption like that based off the 'group'
he belongs to. Is it the case everytime? Absolutely not, but will
think it until proven otherwise and in this specific example I
probably will never speak with this guy nor will I proababy ever see
him again, but is it such a bad thing that I thought for one minute
that the guy works in one of the restaurants?
John_Brian_K
2007-11-30 18:56:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tanya AKA MissT74
Pet peeve.
Thanks again.
John_Brian_K
2007-12-03 14:45:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by doggystyle
This is going to be tough, and it is not a personal attack. I am not sure if it
is "irony", or not , but does anyone find it interesting that in John Brian"s
post that he spent so much time , composing a well written thought process,
(never stepping over the line),about "racial concerns" , and then in this post
he rattles off alist of "TOWNS", that stops just short of listing ,
"niggertown", and "hymietown" (sp). This speaks volumes of the problems of race
, and a diverse country's chance of smoothing out the rough spots.
I am sure you were just trying to flame away, but for your reference
check the links below:

http://www.greektowncasino.com/

http://www.mexicantown.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poletown

I just dont want people to get the wrong idea about what I wrote.
doggystyle
2007-11-30 20:38:24 UTC
Permalink
This is going to be tough, and it is not a personal attack. I am not sure if it
is "irony", or not , but does anyone find it interesting that in John Brian"s
post that he spent so much time , composing a well written thought process,
(never stepping over the line),about "racial concerns" , and then in this post
he rattles off alist of "TOWNS", that stops just short of listing ,
"niggertown", and  "hymietown" (sp). This speaks volumes of the problems of race
, and a diverse country's chance of smoothing out the rough spots.

   And dont worry, you can bet there is a lsit of "do's", and "don'ts" regarding
when to go where at what time , and when to avoid some of these "towns", and
when and where to go to get the best ethnic foods in those areas.

 But then that would be stereotyping and we all know that none of us EVER EVER
do that !!
Post by John_Brian_K
Post by TimSully
Dude, just get a T-shirt that says "I mace Black People" and wear it
over your coat every day and be done with it.- Hide quoted text -
lol
Did you see that episode of Runs house where Kid Rock was wearing a
shirt that said "I Love Black People'? Kid rock is local and while I
dont watch that show they talked about it on the radio this morning.
For those who do not know him though Kid Rock is a good guy and has a
big heart.
I never mentioned race nor did I specify any group. A little FYI
Tim. I live in Dearborn, MI which is the largest population of Arabs
outside of the Middle East and about 10 minutes away from Dowtown
DETROIT which has a majority African American population and I live
about 15 minutes away from 'Mexican Town', 'Greektown' and 'Poletown'
as well.
Basically what I am saying is that I live in a very diverse area and
have small prejudices against all of them.
To expound on that last statement: Like Johnny and Chris were
discussing it IS a mistake to think that just because the majority of
a certain group may act in a certain way the mind has no choice but to
make the corelation if its experience is the same more than it is
not. And while I say 'prejudices against all of them' please do not
misinterpret that to mean I dislike any of those 'groups' I do not,
but rather have what I call prejudices or view them prejudicialy as in
if I see a Mexican dude in Mexicantown I know with a high probability
that he works in one of the restaurants in that area. That is not
'bad' it is a characterization which I kind of put in the prejudice
file because I will make an assumption like that based off the 'group'
he belongs to. Is it the case everytime? Absolutely not, but will
think it until proven otherwise and in this specific example I
probably will never speak with this guy nor will I proababy ever see
him again, but is it such a bad thing that I thought for one minute
that the guy works in one of the restaurants?
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Tanya AKA MissT74
2007-11-30 18:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by John_Brian_K
I drive quite a bit for work (not that much currently because my car
has been acting up and I dont trust it), but even back and forth to
work for me is about a 40 minute drive. Something that bothers me
when I drive is people who tailgate or drive up really fast and then
change lanes right before they get to the car in front of them. This
bothers me because it is dangerous and there is no reason for it. I
notice a certain group do this more than others so I tend to have a
prejudice towards that group because of this reason.
Does that example fall into a pet peve or a strong opinion?
Pet peeve.

T





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eleaticus
2007-11-30 20:56:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by John_Brian_K
Hello All,
A subject that I have been thinking about for a while. I wanted to
put the words down and see if it sparks some conversation.
Now to me the biggest difference between being prejudice and being
racist is the hate. I have not looked up the formal definitions, but
I think this is the case in the formal definitions as well. And while
prejudice IMO can apply to something other than people I still think
it has its roots in people.
So what makes someone have prejudice against a group?
"You've got to be carefully taught."

South Pacific (Rogers & Hammerstein)

I was thinking
Post by John_Brian_K
about it a bit and was honest with myself and realized I have certain
prejudices. I also realized that if certain events were to occur I
could also form other prejudices. Now could these prejudices not
encompass the group they were held towards? I would say yes, but does
that change the fact the the prejudice exists?
I drive quite a bit for work (not that much currently because my car
has been acting up and I dont trust it), but even back and forth to
work for me is about a 40 minute drive. Something that bothers me
when I drive is people who tailgate or drive up really fast and then
change lanes right before they get to the car in front of them. This
bothers me because it is dangerous and there is no reason for it. I
notice a certain group do this more than others so I tend to have a
prejudice towards that group because of this reason.
Does that example fall into a pet peve or a strong opinion? I do not
think so because it involves a certain group of people AND I notice
that group. Why would I notice something like that? Is it because it
is a consistent pattern and the mind looks for patterns in
everything? Or is it because I had a prejudice towards this group for
other reasons and use this example to affirm that prejudice?
Now if I were racist towards that group I think I would use that fact
to justify an action to prevent it. Is racism nothing more than
prejudice that takes negative action? Now 'action' could be physical
action or it could mean verbal action. I think everyone is familiar
with a person who has either a hatred or is racist against a certain
group and may have heard someone verbalize that hatred.
I bring this up because I have befriended someone who is very
different from me in many ways. Different culture, a 'slight'
language barrier etc. I have been very accommodating and have given
my friendship unconditionaly, but cannot help but wonder what would
happen if my friendship was taken advantage of. Would I look at it in
the sense that 'well this group must be like this because I gave
unconditionaly and this person took advantage what would happen if I
didnt even KNOW that person?' Does that make us look upon others with
skepticism, trepidation....fear?
How many chances do you give a group of people that have the same
beliefs before you become so wary that you decide to not try anymore?
How long is it going to be before we look past the 'group' and see the
person? Will it ALWAYS be like this until these 'groups' start
melting together and acting in similiar ways? I am fairly confident
that people are going to think of examples where this was attempted in
a non natural way ie Hitler trying to get everyone to 'look the same'
this is nowhere near what I am trying to say, but rather a natural
evolution that will eventually have all 'groups' of people thinking
and acting in a way that is helpful to EVERYONE.
I grew up in a pretty diverse neighborhood and had friends of many
different groups. Some of these groups I have certain prejudices
towards to this day because of my experience, but I also still have
friends that are in those groups to this day. Why is it that I can
still have friends with a group of people I have certain prejudices
towards while others turn that prejudice to hatred/racism? Is it
because the acts that were performed by these groups upon me were not
as bad as the acts that were acted upon towards others and that makes
it more difficult to just move on?
If someone repeatedly gets robbed by the same 'group' of people over
and over and over, will that person have a chance to forgive and
forget? How much tollerance can one person have?
Is defeatism/despair worse than racism?
FL Turbo
2007-12-01 01:24:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by John_Brian_K
Hello All,
A subject that I have been thinking about for a while. I wanted to
put the words down and see if it sparks some conversation.
Now to me the biggest difference between being prejudice and being
racist is the hate. I have not looked up the formal definitions, but
I think this is the case in the formal definitions as well. And while
prejudice IMO can apply to something other than people I still think
it has its roots in people.
I offer my NSHO for your consideration.

The word "racist" has been so thoroughly abused, overused and misused
as to be completely meaningless.

Right now, the term is simply an insult hurled by people who do not
agree with what someone else has to say.

It means nothing any more, other than a convenient way of yelling
"SHUT UP!! SHUT UP!!"

Well, yes, racism and prejudice have their roots in people,
but........

So??
Irish Mike
2007-12-01 02:42:35 UTC
Permalink
"It means nothing any more, other than a convenient way of yelling "SHUT
UP!! "

I think Don Imus, Trent Lott, Dog the Bounty Hunter, Kramer on Seinfeld Rush
Limbaugh, Nick the Greek and others would disagree with you there bucko.

Irish Mike
Post by FL Turbo
Post by John_Brian_K
Hello All,
A subject that I have been thinking about for a while. I wanted to
put the words down and see if it sparks some conversation.
Now to me the biggest difference between being prejudice and being
racist is the hate. I have not looked up the formal definitions, but
I think this is the case in the formal definitions as well. And while
prejudice IMO can apply to something other than people I still think
it has its roots in people.
I offer my NSHO for your consideration.
The word "racist" has been so thoroughly abused, overused and misused
as to be completely meaningless.
Right now, the term is simply an insult hurled by people who do not
agree with what someone else has to say.
It means nothing any more, other than a convenient way of yelling
"SHUT UP!! SHUT UP!!"
Well, yes, racism and prejudice have their roots in people,
but........
So??
John_Brian_K
2007-12-03 15:25:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tanya AKA MissT74
Thanks. Do you have any thoughts on the subject?
On stereotyping? Yeah. People do it. It will always be done. Sometimes it's the
right thing to do (Think 9/11), and although you'll find yourself "wrong" for
"stereotyping" or "prejudging" someone, and that they're actually different then
from what you thought they might be, I actually think the percentages are
higher for people being correct vs. being wrong as people tend to live up to
their stereotype.
T
Thanks for taking the time to respond. Do you honestly think it 'will
always be done' though? Do you think there will EVER (think like
George Jettson time frame) be a time when we can look past the way
someone looks and forget about the 5 times we saw someone who looked
like that rob someone or shoot someone and just give that person a
chance to prove the prejudice wrong?

Someone else mentioned how they thought they are usually correct. I
have found myself thinking (of someone I just met, say at a poker
table) I KNOW what kind of guy this is (because you know as poker
player we try to size up our opponents and put them into some kind of
category) and have been pleasantly surprised that they completed blew
the sterotype away. Maybe we prefer that because it is safer. I mean
if you go into thinking negative about someone and they are the
opposite you get the best of both worlds in a way don't you? I mean
you are 'protecting' yourself if they fit the prejudice, but you are
also getting a very good surprise if they dont fit the prejudice you
have of them.
Irish Mike
2007-12-03 16:25:37 UTC
Permalink
I've never been to Israel, but this is what I was told by an Israeli. If
you are a Jew flying out of an Israeli airport plan to arrive about two
hours before your flight to clear security. If you are an arab/muslim, plan
to arrive about eight hours before your flight to clear security. The
reason is obvious. The Israeli's know the people who have sworn to destroy
them are arabs/muslims so that is who they focus on.

This could never happen in the U.S. because we are insanely obsessed with
political correctness and the ACLU and liberals would have a stroke.

OTOH, the Israelis have never had one of their planes hi-jacked, blown up or
flown in to a sky scraper.

Irish Mike
Post by John_Brian_K
Post by Tanya AKA MissT74
Thanks. Do you have any thoughts on the subject?
On stereotyping? Yeah. People do it. It will always be done. Sometimes it's the
right thing to do (Think 9/11), and although you'll find yourself "wrong" for
"stereotyping" or "prejudging" someone, and that they're actually different then
from what you thought they might be, I actually think the percentages are
higher for people being correct vs. being wrong as people tend to live up to
their stereotype.
T
Thanks for taking the time to respond. Do you honestly think it 'will
always be done' though? Do you think there will EVER (think like
George Jettson time frame) be a time when we can look past the way
someone looks and forget about the 5 times we saw someone who looked
like that rob someone or shoot someone and just give that person a
chance to prove the prejudice wrong?
Someone else mentioned how they thought they are usually correct. I
have found myself thinking (of someone I just met, say at a poker
table) I KNOW what kind of guy this is (because you know as poker
player we try to size up our opponents and put them into some kind of
category) and have been pleasantly surprised that they completed blew
the sterotype away. Maybe we prefer that because it is safer. I mean
if you go into thinking negative about someone and they are the
opposite you get the best of both worlds in a way don't you? I mean
you are 'protecting' yourself if they fit the prejudice, but you are
also getting a very good surprise if they dont fit the prejudice you
have of them.
John_Brian_K
2007-12-03 16:59:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Irish Mike
I've never been to Israel, but this is what I was told by an Israeli. If
you are a Jew flying out of an Israeli airport plan to arrive about two
hours before your flight to clear security. If you are an arab/muslim, plan
to arrive about eight hours before your flight to clear security. The
reason is obvious. The Israeli's know the people who have sworn to destroy
them are arabs/muslims so that is who they focus on.
This could never happen in the U.S. because we are insanely obsessed with
political correctness and the ACLU and liberals would have a stroke.
OTOH, the Israelis have never had one of their planes hi-jacked, blown up or
flown in to a sky scraper.
This is interesting you brought up the Israeli/Muslim angle here Mike
for a couple reasons.

I do not know you, but my opinion of you is pretty high based SOLEY on
the fact that you are IRISH which goes straight to the topic of this
thread. While I say that I also say that my GF is Muslim and while I
am pretty sure of your stance or views on Muslims I am interested in
taking this discussion a little further. I have made these
declarations before, but again will do so as to make sure we are on
the same page when it comes to this discussion.

She is American first and has the ideology of what makes our country
great. She is not a devout Muslim, but rather does what most people
do which is adopt certain rituals (for a lack of better words) that
are inherent to her culture. Just as I was born and raised in the
catholic religion and have done the same. Neither one of us goes to
church/mosque nor do either of us pray with any amount of
consistency.

She is proud of her heritage as am I, but also aknowledges and
denounces the parts of her heritage/religion that are in her opinion
not right. As I do the same with my religion/heritage.

The example you bring up is a good one and is point on, but I cannot
imagine what your views or opions of my GF would be based off the fact
that she is Muslim.

Do you look upon all those who consider themselves Muslim as being
either terrorists or bad people based off the relion they have been
born into and or have been following for their entire lives?

As I mentioned before my opinion of you based soley on the fact that
you are IRISH is high which 'could' be a mistake and while my opinion
of my GF is high not based off the fact that she is muslim, but almost
inspite (not the right word, but I cannot think of the right word
right now) of it because my opinion of the Muslim religion (for the
most part) is nagative, but my opinions on EVERY organized religion is
basically negative, but that topic is for another time.

This really didnt turn into a focused observation/comment, but I lost
my focus in the middle and will leave my observations as they are and
hope to clarify where I was going with it at a later time.
Irish Mike
2007-12-03 20:07:09 UTC
Permalink
"Do you look upon all those who consider themselves Muslim as being
either terrorists or bad people based off the relion they have been
born into and or have been following for their entire lives?"

No, I don't think all muslims are bad people. But I do think Americans are
extremely naive about the level of hatred and fanaticism of many muslims. I
also oppose their oppression of women, their lack of tolerance for religious
freedom and their failure to distinguish between, women, children,
non-combatants and military personnel.

I recommend you read "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the
Crusades)", by Robert Spencer. I think you will find it very interesting.

Irish Mike
Post by John_Brian_K
Post by Irish Mike
I've never been to Israel, but this is what I was told by an Israeli. If
you are a Jew flying out of an Israeli airport plan to arrive about two
hours before your flight to clear security. If you are an arab/muslim, plan
to arrive about eight hours before your flight to clear security. The
reason is obvious. The Israeli's know the people who have sworn to destroy
them are arabs/muslims so that is who they focus on.
This could never happen in the U.S. because we are insanely obsessed with
political correctness and the ACLU and liberals would have a stroke.
OTOH, the Israelis have never had one of their planes hi-jacked, blown up or
flown in to a sky scraper.
This is interesting you brought up the Israeli/Muslim angle here Mike
for a couple reasons.
I do not know you, but my opinion of you is pretty high based SOLEY on
the fact that you are IRISH which goes straight to the topic of this
thread. While I say that I also say that my GF is Muslim and while I
am pretty sure of your stance or views on Muslims I am interested in
taking this discussion a little further. I have made these
declarations before, but again will do so as to make sure we are on
the same page when it comes to this discussion.
She is American first and has the ideology of what makes our country
great. She is not a devout Muslim, but rather does what most people
do which is adopt certain rituals (for a lack of better words) that
are inherent to her culture. Just as I was born and raised in the
catholic religion and have done the same. Neither one of us goes to
church/mosque nor do either of us pray with any amount of
consistency.
She is proud of her heritage as am I, but also aknowledges and
denounces the parts of her heritage/religion that are in her opinion
not right. As I do the same with my religion/heritage.
The example you bring up is a good one and is point on, but I cannot
imagine what your views or opions of my GF would be based off the fact
that she is Muslim.
Do you look upon all those who consider themselves Muslim as being
either terrorists or bad people based off the relion they have been
born into and or have been following for their entire lives?
As I mentioned before my opinion of you based soley on the fact that
you are IRISH is high which 'could' be a mistake and while my opinion
of my GF is high not based off the fact that she is muslim, but almost
inspite (not the right word, but I cannot think of the right word
right now) of it because my opinion of the Muslim religion (for the
most part) is nagative, but my opinions on EVERY organized religion is
basically negative, but that topic is for another time.
This really didnt turn into a focused observation/comment, but I lost
my focus in the middle and will leave my observations as they are and
hope to clarify where I was going with it at a later time.
John_Brian_K
2007-12-03 20:21:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Irish Mike
No, I don't think all muslims are bad people. But I do think Americans are
extremely naive about the level of hatred and fanaticism of many muslims. I
also oppose their oppression of women, their lack of tolerance for religious
freedom and their failure to distinguish between, women, children,
non-combatants and military personnel.
I feel the same. The main issue for my GF is the oppression of women
(go figure), but we have never really gotten too deep into the subject
of military etc.
Post by Irish Mike
I recommend you read "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the
Crusades)", by Robert Spencer. I think you will find it very interesting.
I will check it out thanks.
John_Brian_K
2007-12-03 20:16:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tanya AKA MissT74
No offense dear, but it could go back to then or even before. I remember not
liking you at all when you first started posting and even know while I don't
dislike-dislike you, as in hate you or anything like that, but I also have no
warm fuzzies towards you. To each their own, there are plenty who don't like me
either just from my posts, and that's the way it is.
T
No offense taken and while I was asking the question you were typing
the response. See my previous post about how other people see other
people on this group.

And while you say you dont hate me (which I am thankful for because
even not knowing someone if I thought that someone hated me I would
get really bumed out) I am honestly curious to know (if you care to or
have the time to elaborate at all) why you dislike dislike me?

Like you say to each his own, but even some of the people who
frequently take shots at me I do not dislike dislike to the point of
saying 'well at least I dont HATE you' There are a few people on
here who seem to use the platform to get out there negative emotions
and those people I have come to identify and (to me anyway) I dont
really hate or even dislike dislike, but rather try to figure out why
they are like that.

You always seem like a popular person on here and in my personal life
consider myself a 'popular' person as well and while there are many
other people on here who share your opinions I am wondering how I come
off so differently on here than I do in my personal life.

And I am sure it does not matter, but besides the fact that you
dislike me I have never had anything against you and while reading
your responses to other peoples posts I find that you seem like a
decent person.
FellKnight
2007-12-03 22:20:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by John_Brian_K
And while you say you dont hate me (which I am thankful for because
even not knowing someone if I thought that someone hated me I would
get really bumed out) I am honestly curious to know (if you care to or
have the time to elaborate at all) why you dislike dislike me?
I am certain that I have never spoken with Tanya about you, so our
opinions are different and uninfluenced by each other, but you are
correct. I do not like you. I would not use hate either, because that is
a very strong word, and I reserve it for serious situations. I cannot
narrow it down to any one thing in particular, but there is something
about the way that you communicate, or try to, that irks the hell out of
me. Almost everything you write rubs me the wrong way. It doesn't matter
the subject, whether poker, sports, or politics.

Fell

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John_Brian_K
2007-12-04 18:16:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by FellKnight
I am certain that I have never spoken with Tanya about you, so our
opinions are different and uninfluenced by each other, but you are
correct. I do not like you. I would not use hate either, because that is
a very strong word, and I reserve it for serious situations. I cannot
narrow it down to any one thing in particular, but there is something
about the way that you communicate, or try to, that irks the hell out of
me. Almost everything you write rubs me the wrong way. It doesn't matter
the subject, whether poker, sports, or politics.
Fell
Fair enough. Thanks for the honesty.
Tanya AKA MissT74
2007-12-05 17:45:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by John_Brian_K
Post by Tanya AKA MissT74
No offense dear, but it could go back to then or even before. I remember not
liking you at all when you first started posting and even know while I don't
dislike-dislike you, as in hate you or anything like that, but I also have no
warm fuzzies towards you. To each their own, there are plenty who don't like me
either just from my posts, and that's the way it is.
T
No offense taken and while I was asking the question you were typing
the response. See my previous post about how other people see other
people on this group.
And while you say you dont hate me (which I am thankful for because
even not knowing someone if I thought that someone hated me I would
get really bumed out) I am honestly curious to know (if you care to or
have the time to elaborate at all) why you dislike dislike me?
The way you come across.
Post by John_Brian_K
Like you say to each his own, but even some of the people who
frequently take shots at me I do not dislike dislike to the point of
saying 'well at least I dont HATE you' There are a few people on
here who seem to use the platform to get out there negative emotions
and those people I have come to identify and (to me anyway) I dont
really hate or even dislike dislike, but rather try to figure out why
they are like that.
You always seem like a popular person on here and in my personal life
consider myself a 'popular' person as well and while there are many
other people on here who share your opinions I am wondering how I come
off so differently on here than I do in my personal life.
Perhaps this is why you turn me off. Shrugs shoulders, again, I know I do the
same to some people although not most.

T
Post by John_Brian_K
And I am sure it does not matter, but besides the fact that you
dislike me I have never had anything against you and while reading
your responses to other peoples posts I find that you seem like a
decent person.
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John_Brian_K
2007-12-03 19:54:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tanya AKA MissT74
Of course it's safer, it makes us feel like we actually "know" something, or
think we know something. Especially when, as I said before, we are usually
correct as most people fit their stereotype.
T
This can be a question for anybody I suppose, but will ask it of you
since you have found time in your day to respond.

I am wondering if people believe I fit into a 'sterotype'. I have
never met anyone from here so I think it is almost impossible to try
and 'categorize' someone you have never met, but for those who either
respond to my threads or lurk my threads I am wondering.

Or something that may be easier. Does anyone have a person on here
who they discuss things with or whom they think they may 'know'? If
so do they fit any of the typical prejudices, you may or society may,
hit them with?
Tanya AKA MissT74
2007-12-05 17:43:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by John_Brian_K
Post by Tanya AKA MissT74
Of course it's safer, it makes us feel like we actually "know" something, or
think we know something. Especially when, as I said before, we are usually
correct as most people fit their stereotype.
T
This can be a question for anybody I suppose, but will ask it of you
since you have found time in your day to respond.
I am wondering if people believe I fit into a 'sterotype'. I have
never met anyone from here so I think it is almost impossible to try
and 'categorize' someone you have never met, but for those who either
respond to my threads or lurk my threads I am wondering.
Yes.
Post by John_Brian_K
Or something that may be easier. Does anyone have a person on here
who they discuss things with or whom they think they may 'know'? If
so do they fit any of the typical prejudices, you may or society may,
hit them with?
Yes.

T


 

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FellKnight
2007-12-03 21:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Irish Mike
OTOH, the Israelis have never had one of their planes hi-jacked, blown up or
flown in to a sky scraper.
Irish Mike
Once again, Mike, you prove your ignorance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al

Refer to section: "Hijacking and Terrorism"

Fell

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Tanya AKA MissT74
2007-12-03 19:44:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tanya AKA MissT74
Thanks. Do you have any thoughts on the subject?
On stereotyping? Yeah. People do it. It will always be done. Sometimes it's the
right thing to do (Think 9/11), and although you'll find yourself "wrong" for
"stereotyping" or "prejudging" someone, and that they're actually different then
from what you thought they might be, I actually think the percentages are
higher for people being correct vs. being wrong as people tend to live up to
their stereotype.
T
Thanks for taking the time to respond. Do you honestly think it 'will
always be done' though? Do you think there will EVER (think like
George Jettson time frame) be a time when we can look past the way
someone looks and forget about the 5 times we saw someone who looked
like that rob someone or shoot someone and just give that person a
chance to prove the prejudice wrong?
Honestly, no.
Someone else mentioned how they thought they are usually correct. I
have found myself thinking (of someone I just met, say at a poker
table) I KNOW what kind of guy this is (because you know as poker
player we try to size up our opponents and put them into some kind of
category) and have been pleasantly surprised that they completed blew
the sterotype away. Maybe we prefer that because it is safer. I mean
if you go into thinking negative about someone and they are the
opposite you get the best of both worlds in a way don't you? I mean
you are 'protecting' yourself if they fit the prejudice, but you are
also getting a very good surprise if they dont fit the prejudice you
have of them.
Of course it's safer, it makes us feel like we actually "know" something, or
think we know something. Especially when, as I said before, we are usually
correct as most people fit their stereotype.

T


 

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John_Brian_K
2007-12-03 15:29:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by eleaticus
Post by John_Brian_K
So what makes someone have prejudice against a group?
"You've got to be carefully taught."
South Pacific (Rogers & Hammerstein)
Is that a book reference?
doggystyle
2007-11-30 20:03:28 UTC
Permalink
Your post is similar to something I have always wanted to write about , but
there is almost no way to do it, without being accused of being racist.
My premise is that stereotypes arent hated because they are false. Stereotypes
are hated because in general they are true. While everyone can point to a member
of a group who might not ALWAYS do what is expected of that group, in general
groups act as they are accused or expected.

I will try to cite some examples.

In the 80's in Las Vegas poker scene , the group that did most of the sleezing,
stealing, and cheap shotting , were the Greeks. In the early 90's it was the
Asians, who took the blue ribbon for sleezy crap.
   How often when you watch an NFL game , do you see a team down 14 points,
score a touchdown , and you get to watch a black player go into a dance , spike
the ball, and act a fool. Someone needs to remind this clown , that he is still
losing the game. This activity became popular when Gastineau and Klecko (both
white), did it when one would make a sack. Billy Johnson started the TD
celebration, but Klecko and Gastineau made it HUGE. Someone will now want to
point at Brett Favre , and his activities after a TD, but if you look at the
ratio between white and black players who cost their teams , and act a fool, it
aint close.
  How often do you see an interview, with an athlete in his 5th year of college,
on a sports broadcast, litter the conversation with "wif" , "bofe", and "you
know what I mean"? These people have been given a 150,000 dollar education , and
they cant speak english.
   How many of you have seen jewish people, playing in lower limit games, in Las
Vegas , demand special treatment?  If there are 4 in a game , and one wins a
pot, they will needle, talk around other players, and gang up like the "Boyz in
the Hood".If they ever make a mistake when they put money in the pot, TRUST ME ,
they ALWAYS short the pot, never ever do they put too much in. Coincidence??

How many times have we seen drunk  poker dealers, fuck up a poker game , by
nit-picking other dealers, and running their mouth, and riding bad players?

And just as bad is a group of white people , of all classes, who look around and
dont see a black guy, and they make a "nigger", joke, or they look and dont see
a Mexican , and they will ,make a "beaner" joke. These are the biggest
hypocrites of all.
Basically different groups of different kinds of people, do in fact act in ways
that are expected of them. They do this in tremendous majorities, although we
can all find exceptions, to these examples.

 The Op did a much better job , of saying what he did , without using any
epithets, but we all know what groups he meant by the examples he gave.

We are all guilty of racism , in some form, at some point. By the same token (no
pun intended), most groups who whine and complain , about "stereotypes", do
nothing to alter the perceptions we have of them , or ourselves.

If anyone wants to change the stereotypical perceptions they have crafted for
themselves, then start acting in a manner , that sets you above those you are
ashamed of.

And that goes for everyone , including myself!!
Post by John_Brian_K
Hello All,
A subject that I have been thinking about for a while. I wanted to
put the words down and see if it sparks some conversation.
Now to me the biggest difference between being prejudice and being
racist is the hate. I have not looked up the formal definitions, but
I think this is the case in the formal definitions as well. And while
prejudice IMO can apply to something other than people I still think
it has its roots in people.
So what makes someone have prejudice against a group? I was thinking
about it a bit and was honest with myself and realized I have certain
prejudices. I also realized that if certain events were to occur I
could also form other prejudices. Now could these prejudices not
encompass the group they were held towards? I would say yes, but does
that change the fact the the prejudice exists?
I drive quite a bit for work (not that much currently because my car
has been acting up and I dont trust it), but even back and forth to
work for me is about a 40 minute drive. Something that bothers me
when I drive is people who tailgate or drive up really fast and then
change lanes right before they get to the car in front of them. This
bothers me because it is dangerous and there is no reason for it. I
notice a certain group do this more than others so I tend to have a
prejudice towards that group because of this reason.
Does that example fall into a pet peve or a strong opinion? I do not
think so because it involves a certain group of people AND I notice
that group. Why would I notice something like that? Is it because it
is a consistent pattern and the mind looks for patterns in
everything? Or is it because I had a prejudice towards this group for
other reasons and use this example to affirm that prejudice?
Now if I were racist towards that group I think I would use that fact
to justify an action to prevent it. Is racism nothing more than
prejudice that takes negative action? Now 'action' could be physical
action or it could mean verbal action. I think everyone is familiar
with a person who has either a hatred or is racist against a certain
group and may have heard someone verbalize that hatred.
I bring this up because I have befriended someone who is very
different from me in many ways. Different culture, a 'slight'
language barrier etc. I have been very accommodating and have given
my friendship unconditionaly, but cannot help but wonder what would
happen if my friendship was taken advantage of. Would I look at it in
the sense that 'well this group must be like this because I gave
unconditionaly and this person took advantage what would happen if I
didnt even KNOW that person?' Does that make us look upon others with
skepticism, trepidation....fear?
How many chances do you give a group of people that have the same
beliefs before you become so wary that you decide to not try anymore?
How long is it going to be before we look past the 'group' and see the
person? Will it ALWAYS be like this until these 'groups' start
melting together and acting in similiar ways? I am fairly confident
that people are going to think of examples where this was attempted in
a non natural way ie Hitler trying to get everyone to 'look the same'
this is nowhere near what I am trying to say, but rather a natural
evolution that will eventually have all 'groups' of people thinking
and acting in a way that is helpful to EVERYONE.
I grew up in a pretty diverse neighborhood and had friends of many
different groups. Some of these groups I have certain prejudices
towards to this day because of my experience, but I also still have
friends that are in those groups to this day. Why is it that I can
still have friends with a group of people I have certain prejudices
towards while others turn that prejudice to hatred/racism? Is it
because the acts that were performed by these groups upon me were not
as bad as the acts that were acted upon towards others and that makes
it more difficult to just move on?
If someone repeatedly gets robbed by the same 'group' of people over
and over and over, will that person have a chance to forgive and
forget? How much tollerance can one person have?
Is defeatism/despair worse than racism?
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doggystyle
2007-11-30 20:49:25 UTC
Permalink
If you really want to relate this thread to poker.

The next time someone is last to turn over the best hand, in a 6 way pot, after
shaking his head , and acting like he is beat. (even if he were the bettor), I
am willing to lay 6-1 , it is a black guy.
Coincidence???
Post by John_Brian_K
Hello All,
A subject that I have been thinking about for a while. I wanted to
put the words down and see if it sparks some conversation.
Now to me the biggest difference between being prejudice and being
racist is the hate. I have not looked up the formal definitions, but
I think this is the case in the formal definitions as well. And while
prejudice IMO can apply to something other than people I still think
it has its roots in people.
So what makes someone have prejudice against a group? I was thinking
about it a bit and was honest with myself and realized I have certain
prejudices. I also realized that if certain events were to occur I
could also form other prejudices. Now could these prejudices not
encompass the group they were held towards? I would say yes, but does
that change the fact the the prejudice exists?
I drive quite a bit for work (not that much currently because my car
has been acting up and I dont trust it), but even back and forth to
work for me is about a 40 minute drive. Something that bothers me
when I drive is people who tailgate or drive up really fast and then
change lanes right before they get to the car in front of them. This
bothers me because it is dangerous and there is no reason for it. I
notice a certain group do this more than others so I tend to have a
prejudice towards that group because of this reason.
Does that example fall into a pet peve or a strong opinion? I do not
think so because it involves a certain group of people AND I notice
that group. Why would I notice something like that? Is it because it
is a consistent pattern and the mind looks for patterns in
everything? Or is it because I had a prejudice towards this group for
other reasons and use this example to affirm that prejudice?
Now if I were racist towards that group I think I would use that fact
to justify an action to prevent it. Is racism nothing more than
prejudice that takes negative action? Now 'action' could be physical
action or it could mean verbal action. I think everyone is familiar
with a person who has either a hatred or is racist against a certain
group and may have heard someone verbalize that hatred.
I bring this up because I have befriended someone who is very
different from me in many ways. Different culture, a 'slight'
language barrier etc. I have been very accommodating and have given
my friendship unconditionaly, but cannot help but wonder what would
happen if my friendship was taken advantage of. Would I look at it in
the sense that 'well this group must be like this because I gave
unconditionaly and this person took advantage what would happen if I
didnt even KNOW that person?' Does that make us look upon others with
skepticism, trepidation....fear?
How many chances do you give a group of people that have the same
beliefs before you become so wary that you decide to not try anymore?
How long is it going to be before we look past the 'group' and see the
person? Will it ALWAYS be like this until these 'groups' start
melting together and acting in similiar ways? I am fairly confident
that people are going to think of examples where this was attempted in
a non natural way ie Hitler trying to get everyone to 'look the same'
this is nowhere near what I am trying to say, but rather a natural
evolution that will eventually have all 'groups' of people thinking
and acting in a way that is helpful to EVERYONE.
I grew up in a pretty diverse neighborhood and had friends of many
different groups. Some of these groups I have certain prejudices
towards to this day because of my experience, but I also still have
friends that are in those groups to this day. Why is it that I can
still have friends with a group of people I have certain prejudices
towards while others turn that prejudice to hatred/racism? Is it
because the acts that were performed by these groups upon me were not
as bad as the acts that were acted upon towards others and that makes
it more difficult to just move on?
If someone repeatedly gets robbed by the same 'group' of people over
and over and over, will that person have a chance to forgive and
forget? How much tollerance can one person have?
Is defeatism/despair worse than racism?
_______________________________________________________________
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FellKnight
2007-11-30 23:06:46 UTC
Permalink
Seriously spazzo... dictionary.com.

Fell

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Palooka
2007-11-30 23:52:55 UTC
Permalink
"FellKnight"
Post by FellKnight
Seriously spazzo
Oxymoron.

Palooka
John_Brian_K
2007-12-03 15:15:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Palooka
"FellKnight"
Post by FellKnight
Seriously spazzo
Oxymoron.
Palooka
I am going to take a shot at this one because Palooka has found it
necessary to make his remarks in my posts that suggest the same tenor
I mentioned of Fell's and Raiderfan (both, if I am not mistaken, are
really close friends with Tanya whom I have never met and never
insulted, but maybe it goes back to the whole thread where I suggested
I started the discussion regarding the RGP tourney, which I
appologized for and did not think was that big of a deal. I even
managed to get Pickle to get super pissed with me because of something
he read that I wrote that he misinterpreted about Tanya.)

An oxymoron usually combines terms that are thought to be
contradictory to one another. Taking that definition into account I
am guessing that Palooka thinks that I cannot be taken seriously.
Either that or because of the nickname that I have inadvertently
adopted (for which I dislike by the way-thanks Mark) the word serious
and spazz really do not play happy with one another.

I will have to assume (ass u me, but you started it) that you mean
the latter because the former doesnt make sense IMO. I thought it was
a pretty serious post.
Tanya AKA MissT74
2007-12-03 19:46:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by John_Brian_K
Post by Palooka
"FellKnight"
Post by FellKnight
Seriously spazzo
Oxymoron.
Palooka
I am going to take a shot at this one because Palooka has found it
necessary to make his remarks in my posts that suggest the same tenor
I mentioned of Fell's and Raiderfan (both, if I am not mistaken, are
really close friends with Tanya whom I have never met and never
insulted, but maybe it goes back to the whole thread where I suggested
I started the discussion regarding the RGP tourney, which I
appologized for and did not think was that big of a deal. I even
managed to get Pickle to get super pissed with me because of something
he read that I wrote that he misinterpreted about Tanya.)
No offense dear, but it could go back to then or even before. I remember not
liking you at all when you first started posting and even know while I don't
dislike-dislike you, as in hate you or anything like that, but I also have no
warm fuzzies towards you. To each their own, there are plenty who don't like me
either just from my posts, and that's the way it is.

T
Post by John_Brian_K
An oxymoron usually combines terms that are thought to be
contradictory to one another. Taking that definition into account I
am guessing that Palooka thinks that I cannot be taken seriously.
Either that or because of the nickname that I have inadvertently
adopted (for which I dislike by the way-thanks Mark) the word serious
and spazz really do not play happy with one another.
I will have to assume (ass u me, but you started it) that you mean
the latter because the former doesnt make sense IMO. I thought it was
a pretty serious post.
_______________________________________________________________
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John_Brian_K
2007-12-03 15:05:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by FellKnight
Seriously spazzo... dictionary.com.
Fell
No offense here Fell, but why respond to my post with a one liner that
is intended to insult instead of giving your opinions on the topic? I
am guessing you mean for me to look back and check my spelling and
grammar and all of that or it may be my reference to the proper
definitions of racism and prejudice. That is the problem though I
have no idea what you meant by your statement. So is the right thing
to do to go back and completely reread my post looking for spelling
errors which will help nothing or check for the definitions of the key
words in the discussion to see if I was off base? What is the point
in doing either of those things in a serious discussion like this? I
think the point I was making was conveyed correctly as I got exactly
the types of responses I was looking for until I read yours that is.

Is it possible to have a stimulating discussion about anything on
here? Or should I just give up and reduce myself to one liners to
disparage those who are trying to post thought provoking posts?

I think it is obvious that (for whatever your reasons) you either
dislike me or find me annoying in some way that makes you want to
respond to my posts with a tone that suggests the same. If that is
the case that is fine, but IMO you seem like a smart enough man when
it comes to poker I just wish that if you are going to read the OT
stuff and respond that rather than attacking or pointing out errors
you would give an honest response to proactively continue the
discussion.

If rather your goal in this group is to post 'good' responses to the
poker threads and flame at the OT posts or the people you do not like
I just wish you would let me know that so I can ignore your OT posts
and just respond and spark up discussion with you on the Poker related
threads.

I am anxiously awaiting your one sentence retort that will make me
feel like I wasted 5 minutes composing the above explanation and which
will give me absolutely no insight as to the meaning of your response.
FellKnight
2007-12-03 21:49:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by John_Brian_K
Post by FellKnight
Seriously spazzo... dictionary.com.
Fell
No offense here Fell, but why respond to my post with a one liner that
is intended to insult instead of giving your opinions on the topic? I
am guessing you mean for me to look back and check my spelling and
grammar and all of that or it may be my reference to the proper
definitions of racism and prejudice. That is the problem though I
have no idea what you meant by your statement. So is the right thing
to do to go back and completely reread my post looking for spelling
errors which will help nothing or check for the definitions of the key
words in the discussion to see if I was off base? What is the point
in doing either of those things in a serious discussion like this? I
think the point I was making was conveyed correctly as I got exactly
the types of responses I was looking for until I read yours that is.
Is it possible to have a stimulating discussion about anything on
here? Or should I just give up and reduce myself to one liners to
disparage those who are trying to post thought provoking posts?
I think it is obvious that (for whatever your reasons) you either
dislike me or find me annoying in some way that makes you want to
respond to my posts with a tone that suggests the same. If that is
the case that is fine, but IMO you seem like a smart enough man when
it comes to poker I just wish that if you are going to read the OT
stuff and respond that rather than attacking or pointing out errors
you would give an honest response to proactively continue the
discussion.
I do participate in OT discussions.
Post by John_Brian_K
If rather your goal in this group is to post 'good' responses to the
poker threads and flame at the OT posts or the people you do not like
I just wish you would let me know that so I can ignore your OT posts
and just respond and spark up discussion with you on the Poker related
threads.
I am anxiously awaiting your one sentence retort that will make me
feel like I wasted 5 minutes composing the above explanation and which
will give me absolutely no insight as to the meaning of your response.
My one-liner was clearly pointing out that you wrote a dissertatiuon
asking people what the definitions of racism and prejudice are, and what
are the differences between them, when a simple visit to dictionary.com
would have solved your problems.

Fell

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Mark B [Diputsur]
2007-12-03 21:46:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by FellKnight
My one-liner was clearly pointing out that you wrote a dissertatiuon
Seriously donkeyknight... dictionary.com
FellKnight
2007-12-03 22:24:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark B [Diputsur]
Post by FellKnight
My one-liner was clearly pointing out that you wrote a dissertatiuon
Seriously donkeyknight... dictionary.com
Well done.

Fell

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John_Brian_K
2007-12-04 18:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by FellKnight
Post by Mark B [Diputsur]
Seriously donkeyknight... dictionary.com
Well done.
Fell
I thought you did it on purpose.
j***@yahoo.com
2007-12-03 21:48:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by FellKnight
Post by John_Brian_K
Post by FellKnight
Seriously spazzo... dictionary.com.
Fell
No offense here Fell, but why respond to my post with a one liner that
is intended to insult instead of giving your opinions on the topic? I
am guessing you mean for me to look back and check my spelling and
grammar and all of that or it may be my reference to the proper
definitions of racism and prejudice. That is the problem though I
have no idea what you meant by your statement. So is the right thing
to do to go back and completely reread my post looking for spelling
errors which will help nothing or check for the definitions of the key
words in the discussion to see if I was off base? What is the point
in doing either of those things in a serious discussion like this? I
think the point I was making was conveyed correctly as I got exactly
the types of responses I was looking for until I read yours that is.
Is it possible to have a stimulating discussion about anything on
here? Or should I just give up and reduce myself to one liners to
disparage those who are trying to post thought provoking posts?
I think it is obvious that (for whatever your reasons) you either
dislike me or find me annoying in some way that makes you want to
respond to my posts with a tone that suggests the same. If that is
the case that is fine, but IMO you seem like a smart enough man when
it comes to poker I just wish that if you are going to read the OT
stuff and respond that rather than attacking or pointing out errors
you would give an honest response to proactively continue the
discussion.
I do participate in OT discussions.
Post by John_Brian_K
If rather your goal in this group is to post 'good' responses to the
poker threads and flame at the OT posts or the people you do not like
I just wish you would let me know that so I can ignore your OT posts
and just respond and spark up discussion with you on the Poker related
threads.
I am anxiously awaiting your one sentence retort that will make me
feel like I wasted 5 minutes composing the above explanation and which
will give me absolutely no insight as to the meaning of your response.
My one-liner was clearly pointing out that you wrote a dissertatiuon
asking people what the definitions of racism and prejudice are, and what
are the differences between them, when a simple visit to dictionary.com
would have solved your problems.
Fell
______________________________________________________________________
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? -www.recgroups.com- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Come on now buddy. You know that's not all the post was about.
John_Brian_K
2007-12-03 21:51:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by FellKnight
My one-liner was clearly pointing out that you wrote a dissertatiuon
asking people what the definitions of racism and prejudice are, and what
are the differences between them, when a simple visit to dictionary.com
would have solved your problems.
Fell
Ok well I missed your point and I am not sure it was clear, but either
way.

Really? Dictionary.com huh? Is that what you do when you try to
spark discussion? Just say ahh well why am I going to go to
dictionary.com rather than start a topic of discussion?

I was not simply asking for peoples definitions, but rather spark
discussion. Thanks for contributing.
Ian Stuart
2007-12-03 16:23:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by John_Brian_K
Hello All,
A subject that I have been thinking about for a while. I wanted to
put the words down and see if it sparks some conversation.
I'm surprised it hasn't sparked more debate than it has but it is a
subject that many people will shy away from.
Post by John_Brian_K
Now to me the biggest difference between being prejudice and being
racist is the hate. I have not looked up the formal definitions, but
I think this is the case in the formal definitions as well.
Racism is just prejudice based on race, at least that's my understanding.
Post by John_Brian_K
And while
prejudice IMO can apply to something other than people I still think
it has its roots in people.
So what makes someone have prejudice against a group?
Sometimes it's based on personal experiences or peer pressure but most of
the time it's an easy way for insecure, small-minded people to feel better
about themselves without any rational or justification.
Post by John_Brian_K
I was thinking
about it a bit and was honest with myself and realized I have certain
prejudices.
we all have prejudices. Recognising that you do puts you ahead of the
majority, as long as you work through them and discard those that are
unjustifiable.
Post by John_Brian_K
I also realized that if certain events were to occur I
could also form other prejudices. Now could these prejudices not
encompass the group they were held towards? I would say yes, but does
that change the fact the the prejudice exists?
Prejudices based on factors that have little bearing on who an individual
is and what his values are are unjustifiable. Prejudices based on cultural
factors may have some merit but should still be used with caution. For
example, I have from experience very good reason to be wary of Nigerians
and I will be far more cautious in my dealings with them than with many
other people. It has nothing to do with the color of their skin but simply
that Nigeria is rank with corruption to the extent that deception,
dishonesty and scamming in general is considered socially acceptable. That
doesn't mean that I will have nothing to do with Nigerians nor that I
would never under any circumstances do business with them, just that I
will be more guarded than I might usually be.
Post by John_Brian_K
I drive quite a bit for work (not that much currently because my car
has been acting up and I dont trust it), but even back and forth to
work for me is about a 40 minute drive. Something that bothers me
when I drive is people who tailgate or drive up really fast and then
change lanes right before they get to the car in front of them. This
bothers me because it is dangerous and there is no reason for it. I
notice a certain group do this more than others so I tend to have a
prejudice towards that group because of this reason.
Does that example fall into a pet peve or a strong opinion?
Does it matter what you call it?
Post by John_Brian_K
I do not
think so because it involves a certain group of people AND I notice
that group.
If there is some logical explanation why that group might have a
predisposition towards bad driving then it might be warranted. For
example, if a large percentage of that group are first generation
immigrants who earned their driving spurs in a country with much poorer
driving standards than the USA then there might be some connection.
However, that still leaves the rest of that group, the ones whos only
experience is on US roads and you appear to be willing to tar them all
with the same brush.
Post by John_Brian_K
Why would I notice something like that?
Because your human. As I said earlier we are all prejudiced to some
extent. I personally believe that it's ingrained into our very beings that
we need to form social groups and compete with other groups. we therefore
look to categorise everyone we come across and determine if they belong to
our group or not.
Post by John_Brian_K
Is it because it
is a consistent pattern and the mind looks for patterns in
everything? Or is it because I had a prejudice towards this group for
other reasons and use this example to affirm that prejudice?
Your prejudiced, but not just against this specific group. Kudos to you
for questioning your feelings though. Think them through and you'll start
to pick great big holes in the logic behind them.
Post by John_Brian_K
Now if I were racist towards that group I think I would use that fact
to justify an action to prevent it. Is racism nothing more than
prejudice that takes negative action? Now 'action' could be physical
action or it could mean verbal action. I think everyone is familiar
with a person who has either a hatred or is racist against a certain
group and may have heard someone verbalize that hatred.
Prejudice does not need to manifest itself purely in concrete physical or
verbal hateful actions. Much of the time it's far more subtle - not
letting a driver out of a junction because he's a certain color,
interviewing a candidate but knowing that you're never going to give them
the job because their purple, not inviting Johnny from the office to your
night out because he's gay, assuming the kid on trial is probably guilty
because he's from a certain neighborhood, not tipping a waitress as much
as you usually might because of her skin etc
Post by John_Brian_K
I bring this up because I have befriended someone who is very
different from me in many ways. Different culture, a 'slight'
language barrier etc. I have been very accommodating and have given
my friendship unconditionaly, but cannot help but wonder what would
happen if my friendship was taken advantage of.
Why has it even crossed your mind that your friendship might be taken
advantage of? Do you feel this sense of doubt about all new friends you
make or is it only because this one is a foreigner? You might also
reconsider your claim that you have given your friendship uncoditionally.
A vital component of friendship is trust and you quite clearly have not
given that unconditionally.

Snipped the rest of your post because I need to go check the Polish
plumber fitting my kitchen hasn't helped himself to my wife's dirty
knickers. Back in a bit.

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