Fritz Springmeier Interview
Here is some more to prepare you for the material soon to be sent.
Please utilise this material only to integrate your compassion to ever
greater synthesis of coherent Unity.
A Midway path that has no attachments to the ends of black or white
cannot be touched by any illusionary binary code of the computer of
the universal dream.
With these codes now emerging into the consciousness of the public
mind, it means tens of thousands of Monark slaves coding system will
be evident for the public and will be revealed, as will their handlers
who rely on the public at larges' naivity therein.
Hence, we are one step further to bringing the cancer amidst the
secret stagnation of the body of humanity into the imm-une system of
compassion, as we as Cosmic Man incarnated within this universal
computer to wake up its binary code through phase-conjugational all
encompassing compassionate love, coherent integration in action as the
Hum-our of All-Oneness.
Here is one more of these breakthroughs in Unity realisation (the most
important material is to come over the next days). Let us be All Is
God Conscious integration, as the Unity of Unity's With and As Us.
‹Ananda, September, 2000
CKLN fm 88.1
Ryerson Polytechnical University
Good morning, welcome to the International Connection. This is show
#35 in the radio series on Mind Control and over the next few shows we
are going to be talking to Fritz Springmeier and Cisco Wheeler, co-
authors of the "Illuminati Formula Used to Create an Undetectable
Total Mind Control Slave" and "Deeper Insights", books about trauma
based conditioning mind control. Fritz is a researcher about the
Illuminati and minister to mind control victims. Cisco Wheeler says
she is from a generational Illuminati family and that trauma-based
mind control was perpetrated against her from birth. We will hear the
interview with Cisco in a couple of weeks, and today we are going to
hear an interview with Fritz Springmeier. Fritz talks about the
Illuminati families and how they have used mind control to consolidate
their power throughout history. You are listening to CKLN 88.1 FM.
I am speaking with Fritz Springmeier author, lecturer and minister to
mind control survivors. Welcome to the show Fritz.
Thank you and hello to all you listeners out there in radioland. I
encourage you to participate with our program today because we are
going to be speaking about some important things that affect your life
and will affect the lives of your grandchildren.
I would like to start off with asking you how you first came across
the information about government mind control.
Government mind control overlaps with many other things - it overlaps
with a higher government and a secret world government called the
Illuminati. As I investigated the Illuminati I had to also learn about
their front that they operate. They hide behind the veil of National
Security. They use our patriotism against us and make us think that
for our own interest, for our own security of our own nations, that we
have to subject ourselves to all the secrecy that they impose upon
Did you come across all the information about mind control through
your research into the Illuminati, or vice versa?
Yes, through the Illuminati. That's not to say that I hadn't been
watching the government too, but a lot of what we see out front is
just that - it's a front and if we really want to understand what's
going on, we have to look behind that front.
Maybe you could explain to our listeners, to your understanding, who
are the Illuminati?
The Illuminati are the movers and shakers of the world. They are an
elite group of bloodlines - I call these tribes or families - there
are 13 major bloodlines. They are what are called "generational
satanists". That means that they have practised their secret
witchcraft for many centuries and they have passed their religion down
from one generation to the next. They lead double lives. They have one
life that the world sees and then they have a hidden life that the
world doesn't see. There have been very few people that have been able
to break through the secrecy. They have taken secrecy to a fine art
that I would never have believed that anyone could achieve until I
started getting into this, and there have been very few people over
the years that have broken through that secrecy at all. There was a
man named John Robison who wrote proofs of a conspiracy against all
the religions and governments in Europe carried on in the secret
meetings of the Freemasons, the Illuminati and reading societies. That
came out in 1798 and the Bavarian government, by raiding several safe
houses of the Illuminati, captured original Illuminati documents back
at that time period which were bound and sent out to all the
governments entitled: "Die Originalschriften des Illuminatens
Ordens" (sp?) as the German title the Bavarian government gave it.
But in modern times there have been very few people that have been
able to talk about the Illuminati as it exists today, and that's been
my job. To bring to the world who these people are, what their
traditions are, what they are doing, everything about them. The reason
I am giving a longer version here to your question is that when
someone asks who or what are the Illuminati, they do not think like we
do. People often times interpret things around them in terms of how
they themselves think or their own world view. If you want to
understand the Illuminati, you have to understand that these people do
not think like you or I.
In just one area alone, that is a large percentage of these people are
programmed multiple personalities and just that in itself creates a
whole different thinking pattern from those of us who are not
When you say the Illuminati, is this the same group that is documented
that Adam Weishaupt had started back in 1776 in Bavaria? Is this the
It's the same group. He actually didn't start the organization, it
goes way back. These are oligarchical families that are extremely
powerful and if you go back in history and ask yourself the question,
"when did the elite, powerful, oligarchical families ever give up
their power?" You can't find any point in history. These are the
families that - some of these bloodlines go clear back to Nimrod. The
Rothschild secret genealogy that they have secretly written down
through the centuries, traces their genealogy back to Nimrod. These
people were the ones that controlled the mystery religions. There was
a supreme council that sat over all of these mystery religions of the
ancient world. They were an extremely powerful priesthood, and they
chose to go underground for many years and continue working behind the
scenes. But they never left.
At the end of WWII there was a committee that was sent out throughout
Europe to do a study of all of the churches that had been destroyed by
the war, and they discovered that in most of these Christian churches
(80%) they found that where the Christian alter had been, when these
churches had been destroyed, underneath these alters were pagan alters
that had been uncovered. So what you have is that a lot of these
cathedrals were built on lay lines that were very powerful occult
spiritual points and on after hours these churches were used for what
we would call satanic rituals. So this has been going on secretly for
And you are saying that the Illuminati are responsible for
infiltrating these churches?
These are our movers and shakers, very powerful bloodlines. For
instance, one of these bloodlines includes all of your royal families
of Europe. They are the people that have been in control. If you look
at a lot of these nation states, you will notice that at the head of
their church are their kings and queens.
You mentioned there are 13 families in the generations of the
Illuminati families? Can you name them?
I came out with a book that was specifically designed to go family by
family and discuss them. The top 13 bloodlines are the Astors, Bundy,
Collins, Dupont, Freeman, Kennedy, Leigh, Onassis, Rockefellers,
Rothschild, Russell ... then there is a 13th bloodline which is the
Merovingian bloodline. I just simple call it the 13th and then there
is the Van Dine Illuminati bloodline. The 13th bloodline, the
Merovingian, is extremely important. It includes the royal families of
Europe. In my Volume I book which covers the Top Thirteen Illuminati
Bloodlines, that's the title to it, I don't go into the Merovingian
bloodline so much because there came out a trilogy of books, "The Holy
Blood and the Holy Grail" and two other books by their authors -
Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln - which is so good in discussing this
bloodline that wasn't any real reason for me to go into it.
For instance Prince Charles would be part of that. If you look at
Prince Charles, you will notice in his genealogy he is related to our
Presidents Washington, Jefferson, Madison, both of the Harrisons,
Tyler, Taylor, George Bush. Bush's vice president, Dan Quayle, was
also related to the royal family. Prince Charles is also related to
Mrs. Woodrow Wilson. Here in the USA the concept is that we have all
of these individuals who have been selected to run this country who
are unrelated to each other -- and yet it is quite the contrary.
I have been told when they dedicated George Bush's library in Texas
recently, that President Carter mentioned that he was reading a
recently published book about the Presidents being somehow related to
When did you first realize the existence of the Illuminati? What
information came your way to spark your interest?
Everybody has probably heard of Jehovah's Witnesses and how they would
go out and knock on people's doors. I was the opposite. I was a
Christian missionary to bring Jehovah's Witnesses to Christ and I was
getting tired of working with these little Jehovah's Witnesses on the
street, and I was praying to God to be given the power to decapitate
the authoritarian organization that is over these Jehovah's Witnesses.
At that point, I got my prayer answered. I got this confidential
information that the heads of the Watchtower Society were
collaborating with the heads of the Latter Day Saints church. That
information totally changed my life. I had bumped into the Illuminati
and their mind control, and I am not to single out the Watchtower
Society and the Mormon church because I found out that their
infiltration and control is pretty well right across the whole
spectrum. Your Christian organizations in general have been
infiltrated and controlled from behind the scenes.
This is when I first bumped into the Illuminati. I had learned about
20 years previous to this what a lot of people are already aware of
about the Council of Foreign Relations, Trilaterial Commission and
these types of groups, the Bilderbergers - but there is a whole other
level to things. When I started getting into reading, researching and
trying to help people that wanted out of the Illuminati to get out - I
started getting in at that level. Then I had to work with the mind
control. One thing led to another.
What is the relationship of the groups you just mentioned to the
There are a lot of groups around the world that are making decisions
that are controlling things from behind the scenes and these
particular groups are fronts for the Illuminati. Not fronts in the
sense that they have no actual purpose, they serve a purpose. But
there is a hidden level of control back behind them.
In terms of the Illuminati families and the whole organization itself,
what are their goals? Why have they infiltrated so many of these
Ultimately it's to bring in what people have termed the New World
Order with a man who will hold the world's attention and carry the
title The Antichrist. That's the ultimate goal and I am not trying to
wax religious on people but that's just the simple fact. When you get
into deprogramming people you will see that a lot of the things they
have been programmed to do tie in with a very sophisticated plan to
unify the world under the reign of the Antichrist.
You mentioned that the Illuminati group has used mind control to
further their goals. How did you first come into this? You have been
working with your partner, Cisco Wheeler, who I understand was an
Illuminati mind control victim. How did you first meet and realize
what was going on there?
She was trying to break free of her mind control. What I stumbled upon
was, at least in my opinion, the greatest slavery involved in all
history. You had four high level Illuminati women who had been teamed
together. They had all become Christians and were trying to break free
and had become a support system for each other. Here I was a
researcher of the Illuminati, there's a lot to try and explain. When
you are under the mind control, there is a lot of programming not to
reveal the secrets. It is very difficult for someone who has been in
the Illuminati and received their standard mind control to not divulge
what is going on, so it made it much easier to work with me that I had
already done my homework, and they knew I was going to understand what
they were talking about. They didn't have to say a lot to communicate
certain things, because I was already aware and that saved them from a
lot of the grief from the program kicking in for having talked too
Cisco was part of this group attempting to escape the mind control,
and I got involved in their lives and did what I could to help them. I
brought Cisco out of the Illuminati and in return my learning curve
about the Illuminati was greatly increased because I was given inside
information from these people and a number of other people. Like I
say, trying to understand the secret organization, the secret
bloodlines is very difficult, because one has to stand outside of
one's own culture and own way of thinking and understand these people
as they think, and they do not think like we do. Being able to work
with these people who were in the Illuminati was very valuable.
Because they have used mind control techniques on their own family
members throughout the years?
Oh yes. They have been carrying out this mind control on their own
people as well as others for centuries and this has all been a very
closely guarded secret. It's one of the reasons why they have been
able to carry out so much to implement this New World Order without
people being able to figure out there is such a thing as a worldwide
unified conspiracy. They are very skilled in knowing how to bring
things about so they appear natural.
What is the purpose of them using mind control on their own family
It's really essential. If you are going to participate in the
Illuminati secret life, being a programmed multiple is basic. There
are a few in the Illuminati who aren't programmed multiples, but
considering what one has to participate in. You've got a number of
standard rituals involved - St. Weinbald, St. Agnes, Grand Climax,
Walpurgis, Beltane, all your solstices and equinoxes, Lamas, All
Hallow's Eve, High Grand Climax -- all of these standard rituals.
These rituals are very horrific. They involved human sacrifice.
Sacrifices of babies on the High Grand Climax. On various Sabbats
you've got a young female or a male being sacrificed.
This is not something that the normal mind is going to be able to
handle. The mind control and the creation of multiple personalities
where you get a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde effect - is very crucial to
this thing continuing from generation to generation.
They really use the multiple personalities to facilitate this double
life that they have to lead ... before we get into the techniques that
they use for mind control and the details of that, you mentioned they
seem to have a belief system as well. Could you talk about that?
The Illuminati is the continuation of the Mystery Religions and as
someone comes an adept of the Illuminati they have to learn a whole
series of paths. They give the different types of cult knowledge names
from the 12 Apostles plus the 13th is called the Holy Grail. These men
and women become very skilled in occult knowledge and I am not sure
how much I should go into that, but I guess what I am trying to say is
that they will be trained in alchemy, in Indian sorcery, Druidism,
Enochian magik, Gnosticism, Hermetic magik, cabbalism, Plato, Sufism -
they will know all the different branches of occult systems.
How do they use that information? Do they incorporate elements of all
of those occult belief systems into their own?
It all ties in together. The idea is to amass occult power to yourself
and that's the reason why the Collins family was brought into the top
13 bloodlines. Of course the Merovingian Dynasty had a lot of magik
power and a lot of political power, but the Collins family which was
Scottish had extremely powerful occult powers so it was brought in to
be one of the top occult lines because they were such powerful black
magicians. Cabbalism and the 26 path workings - this is all very
important in the work that they do, and it all ties in with the mind
control too. But most of the therapists out there are secular or
approach it from the secular angle, and as they deal with these mind
control victims' programming, they don't touch on the spiritual
aspect. What I am trying to say is that their religious beliefs can't
be separated from the mind control. It is an integral part of that.
Do the Illuminati worship a single being such as Lucifer?
You've got different levels in which people operate within the
Illuminati. There is the anarchy level which is your common witchcraft
coven, and then you've got your hierarchy level. On the anarchy level
there are thousands and thousands of covens. I have listed the
addresses and names of hundreds of these in one of my books. These
covens are very eclectic. They can have their own traditions, their
own rituals. There is a wide variety of practices on the anarchy
level ... that's what it looks like, is total anarchy. One doesn't see
Above that is your hierarchy level where you would have Asmodeus, your
Grand Masters, and Mothers of Darkness, Grandmothers, Granddaughters.
If you are a programmed multiple, you can function at many different
levels. You can have one personality in this coven, and another
personality in that coven and this personality that is in the Masonic
Lodge, and another in this hierarchy ceremony, another participating
in another Satanic ritual. It is very broken up. One of the reasons
why it is not easy to answer your question is basically everything we
understood about human behaviour and how to gauge or judge people is
obsolete. The mind control, by creating programmed multiple
personalities, has made all of our ways of judging people obsolete.
Within the Illuminati the supreme goal is to balance their good deeds
with their bad deeds, they are dualists. They are Luciferians at the
highest level. That's why your greatest philanthropist will very often
be your highest ranking satanist. What they are trying to do with
their philanthropy is self serving when you actually look at it. It's
not as generous as it appears. They are trying to do good deeds and
balance those with their bad deeds, they believe in balance in their
religion. It's a gnostic luciferianism.
I think it might be difficult for the people listening to understand
how somebody could be in public doing good deeds and having a good
public image, and at the same time having this very dark side. I don't
know if you have read the recent Judith Spencer book, "Satan's High
Priest". It really illustrates how that works very clearly. It's a
true story about one particular satanic cult, a high priest, and his
rise to that.
No I haven't read the book, but I am glad that you brought that out to
the listeners. The way that someone can begin to see the Illuminati is
to start looking at how these people are above the wars and the rest
of what we have to suffer. For instance Pierre Samuel Dupont, during
the French Revolution, all kinds of people around Pierre lost their
heads and yet, for some strange reason, Samuel Dupont managed to "keep
his head" when so many hundreds of people were losing theirs to the
guillotine. One person who was influential in protecting him was
Necker's daughter, Madame Germaine Destael. She ran a cat-house, but
anyway she was intimate friends with St. Simon and St. Simon's
disciples were saying at that point in time in the early 1800's that
the target date for the New World Order would be the year 2000.
Another example in history, and I brought this out in the Top 13
Illuminati Bloodlines book, is when the U.S. went to war right after
Pearl Harbor, within a few days, President Roosevelt came out with a
Presidential Decree which was a semi-secret amendment to the Trading
with the Enemy Act, and it made it legal for certain people to trade
with the enemy, if they were given permission by the American
Secretary of the Treasury who at that time was Hans Morgenthale. I
copied the paper work out of the Federal Code of Regulations. They
actually have this Presidential Decree where if he wanted to exempt
somebody, he could allow them to trade with the enemy. Who were the
people that were given that privilege? Rockefellers and Onassis, both
of them Illuminati kingpins. During WWII every ship that was a Greek
merchant ship was sunk during the War by one side or the other.
Something happened and essentially all of the Greek shippers lost
their vessels. There was one Greek shipper, Aristotle Onassis, who
didn't lose a single ship and his vessels sailed through all the war
zones. None of the Allies or the Axis powers ever attacked his ships.
For something like that to happen, you have to have full collaboration
at the highest level. You see these kinds of things going like -
Pierre Samuel Dupont, Aristotle Onassis. Then you are looking at
somebody who is Illuminati. They sit above all these conflicts that
they create for all the common people.
This way of bypassing trading with the enemy regulations, how has this
been utilized with regard to WWII or the Bolshevik revolution for that
In fact there is an entire book out - I think the title is "Trading
with the Enemy", it came out in 1983 and answers your question.
Rockefeller Standard Oil shipped gas and oil to Spain which then piped
it directly to the Nazis. The Allies knew that Rockefeller was
supplying the Germans. That prolonged the War a couple of year. But
you don't hear about this by establishment historians. There was a lot
of important trading during WWII was necessary to sustain the Nazi war
And you mentioned the Bolshevik revolution. Again you will see there
was a lot of finances sent from, as you are probably well aware and
some listeners are aware, from Kuhn Laib (sp) and Company and some of
these other llumaniti people, and that money was used by the
Bolsheviks to finance the revolution. There were a lot of other
agreements made at that time and things done to help them out. There
is a lot going on behind the scenes.
It seems like they are promoting a strategy of tension where they are
funding both sides and basically profiting from the resultant
conflicts that they are fomenting.
One could go on and on. For instance Heinrich Mueller who was head of
the Gestapo - you will notice that at one point he took an old Jewish
family and he himself had to personally carry their suitcases to his
own car and when he got them to the Swiss border, he carried their
suitcases. The Swiss bodyguards by the way, were laughing seeing the
head of Gestapo helping an old Jewish family escape Nazi Germany. When
the listener out there starts seeing these kinds of things, now that
you have heard me talk, you can begin to realize that there is a
hidden level out there, way beyond what the common person is allowed
to see at that Illuminati level. These are the people who are
collaborating behind the scenes where you have Catholics and
Protestants and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon leaders - you think
these people are at each other's throats - but they are key Illuminati
people who are secretly collaborating.
In talking about the Illuminati, I think a number of people may have
difficulty believing that there is a Unified Liberal Conspiracy to
control the world. Even myself, up until recently, until I started
researching into the mind control, I thought the Illuminati was a
fictitious group. In doing your research about the Illuminati, what
were some of your other sources of information besides the people on
the inside that had escaped?
My sources, besides my eye witnesses, were interviewing a number of
honest law enforcement and private investigators - in fact some of
these people are still ongoing friends of mine. Over the years I have
studied thousands of books, and thousands of documents which has meant
going to special libraries, such as the Genealogical Library at Salt
Lake City. I have interviewed and worked with many therapists and I
have taken off and travelled to sites where programming is done, where
rituals are done, where crimes have been committed. For instance in
Washington state, a number of hours from here, there is a full scale
replica of Stonehenge. Below this replica of Stonehenge which sits on
a hill, is a cemetery a number of feet away and Illuminati rituals are
done at that cemetery. That's an example of a place that I have gone
and looked at for myself.
I need to bring in another concept here that is important to research.
It's not all simply just getting a lot of interviews and the facts
because the raw facts aren't going to do it. When I was in college and
I was taking counselling, the psychologist who was teaching the class
gave some excellent advice. He said, "when you are listening to people
or examining a situation, don't look at the details but look at the
process. The details may throw you for a loop because people will lie,
they will give contradictory information. Look at the process." That's
a very good principle. What I have been doing is analyzing a lot of
raw data, raw facts and interview information, and I have been putting
together a coherent puzzle. That means you have to overlook a lot of
In the late seventies there was a certain amount of information about
CIA mind control that came out to the public, and I would like to know
what you think are the problems inherent in trying to prove the
existence of mind control to a general audience through government
The problems with trying to expose things through government
documentation are one, the documentation has been destroyed or
tampered with and to get the government involved in exposing these
things, what you are basically doing is asking a bunch of criminals,
that's what they are even thought they work in government positions,
to expose themselves with paperwork. That's just not the way things
work. When we think about the Nazis, they were trying to destroy all
traces of their crimes. They tried, they didn't succeed. That gives me
some hope that even though a great percentage of the proof of the mind
control in terms of government documentation has been destroyed, I am
still convinced that tons of documents still exist. But I think even
better than those tons of documents are the living proof we have in
the tens of thousands of identified living victims.
The other side to the problem of getting government documents is that
then you have to have some way to broadcast that to the public at
large and we have a controlled media, and unfortunately the media is
very tight with the government. You can really question whether you
would ever see our controlled media fully expose to the proper degree
the people that need to be exposed.
It seems highly unlikely that the mainstream media is going to be
investigating this. It's more likely to be coming from independent
investigation and independent publishers of this information.
I would love to see the places where the records are kept broken into
and these records exposed, but the only way I can see this happening
would be if there was a revolution on the magnitude of what happened
in Eastern Europe where Stasi records and things like this were
exposed to the light of day.
Do you think a government investigation into the mind control
experiments, similar to what has happened with the Tuskegee syphilis
and the radiation experiments would actually bring out information?
I believe it would bring out information. That's true. However, for
the government to investigate this is like asking the fox how much of
a threat he is to chickens. The fox is going to tell us something,
enough to satisfy us, but I am real leery about giving the government
another chance to push some ulterior agenda. The bottom line is that a
government investigation is going to cost us more tax dollars, and I
think people sometimes forget that every time they send their
government scurrying around doing something that it comes out of their
Do you think there is any benefit though, to society as a whole, in
terms of having a government investigation going on, and having the
government at least admit they did do these kinds of experiments? Is
there any benefit to the people as a whole in trying to expose this?
As a whole? The way you ask your question is going to reflect the way
I answer. No, it will not. The reason why I say this is that earlier
on the US Congress had Rockefeller investigate the CIA. Rockefeller
investigate the CIA!?! (Laughs) Of course his investigating committee
came up with abuses, they have got to find something wrong, but the
thing of it is that it makes Rockefeller look like a good fellow. "Oh
look he's a crusader who is trying to expose the bad guys." They
always throw in an ulterior agenda. If they are going to do something
against themselves, they use it as another opportunity to work on some
other agenda. If they expose A, B and C about mind control, then they
are probably doing it in a way so they are misdirecting people's
attention from their latest technology through an older model that
they have discontinued, or something like that. They are going to work
in some ulterior agenda that when it's all said and done, it has
actually done a disservice.
How do you think the information about mind control has been kept from
public attention for so long?
As we mentioned just a little bit earlier, we have a controlled media
and in a number of my publications I have gone into detail and showed
who is in control of the media, and how these people are Illuminati
members or participating in their Illuminati fronts. I document how
the Rockefellers, and the Rothschilds and the William Randolph Hearsts
- Illuminati kingpins - control the media. I think it's appropriate a
couple of anecdotes.
I was visiting one day with a Christian minister and he was asking me
what I did since I worked full time exposing the mind control and
helping victims of mind control, and exposing the New World Order's
agenda. I was honest with him, and told him that and in the course of
doing that I mentioned something about the controlled media and boy he
hit the roof. He went ballistic on me because just prior to becoming a
minister he had been an ABC reporter. He said, "there is no control
over the media! I was allowed to write and have any stories that I
wanted!" I said, "whoa, slow down, let me ask you some questions."
When you were hired, your superior hired you and kept you on because
he liked the way you thought and the way you wrote ... and likewise
his superior liked the way he thought and the way he wrote ... and on
and on down the line. If anybody had written or thought in ways that
weren't the approved ways of thinking and writing you would have
gotten in trouble, wouldn't you. He said "yes." I said, that's it ...
when I work with victims of mind control they can't see that they are
under programming. As long as they do exactly what the programming
asks them to do, they don't know that they are in programming. The
only time that they know that there is any programming there is if
they step out and act against it. If you are running with the wind
behind your back or if you are in a stream and you are floating down
the stream, you don't notice the current. But when you try to swim
upstream is when you really notice the power of the current. So if you
as a reporter step out of what their expectations are, that's when you
get clobbered and you realize there is a lot of heavy force behind
going against the direction the way they want to go in. He said,
"you're right." I said if you had written an article that had been
contrary to the way your boss thought, you would have been in trouble,
wouldn't you? He said, "yes, you are right, I see your point."
That's my point. People don't notice the control until you start
bucking against that control and then you are going to find out how
much control there is over our entire society.
It seems that control in the newsrooms is almost at an unspoken level,
and often for a lot of reporters it's an economic motivation as well.
The stories that their editors do get accepted, the stories the
editors don't like don't get accepted and the reporters don't get paid
for it. They very quickly appreciate what their editors are going to
accept and print.
I would like to talk about the mind control that the Illuminati have
used and the techniques therein. What is your understanding of the
forms of mind control they have used?
The phrase that I like to use is "Total Mind Control" because it
totally controls the person - body, soul and spirit. And the common
person out there has never really imagined that something so all-
encompassing or so horrendous or so totally powerful even exists. The
type of mind control the Illuminati use - I think some people think
"oh, mind control - television - yeah - subliminals." No. I am talking
about something that is 1000 or 10,000 times more powerful. This mind
control is totally undetectable and it totally controls the person and
it uses every known technique of controlling a person wrapped up in a
sophisticated group package. That's one of the important things that a
lot of people have not emphasized - that it's not one technique, but
what makes this total mind control of the Illuminati so powerful is
that it's a sophisticated group package incorporating all of the known
techniques of control. All of these methods have been carefully
interwoven. When you listen to someone from an intelligence agency,
occasionally they have talked similar to this, where they will say,
"we tried such and such a technique but it only worked in 70% of the
cases so we couldn't use it ... and we tried this technique and it
only worked part of the time." But what they are not telling you is
that if you take a method that works only 70% of the time and match
that to another technique that works 60% of the time, and another
technique that works 50% of the time and you have 100 techniques
wrapped up together like that, you make a package deal that totally
locks the victim in to the control.
Can you talk about some of these techniques individually and how they
were used as a group package?
When I started out to describe to people what was going on, I had
files and files. I had about 150 files of different techniques. I was
thinking to myself, well I can't talk about 150 techniques, that's too
overwhelming for people. I thought and realize that all of these
techniques broke down into 12 sciences. One of the sciences is the
science of trauma and torture. Others is how to use applied drugs to
control a person; their ability to use mental states such as hypnosis,
dissociation, the trance states; their skill at deceiving people and
deceiving the victim themselves. One needs to understand that the
victims of the Illuminati mind control do not even know themselves
that they are under control. So there is a lot of skill in using
fiction and deceit and fronts and covers. There is a science of using
spiritual things to control a person. In fact actually that is perhaps
one of the major, if not 'the major' method of controlling a person.
There is a science of using spiritual things to control a person. In
fact actually that is perhaps one of the major, if not the major
method of controlling a person. One of the things that's not political
popular today for people today in science to admit is that mankind has
a spiritual side to them, but humans do have a spiritual side to them
and the Illuminati understand how to spiritually control someone.
Their understanding of that has boggled my mind. They have only
allowed the common people including the Christian people - the crumbs
so to speak - even our ministers have only been given the crumbs on
how to develop a person spiritually.
And how do you feel they have developed this and gained this
A lot of this began back in the Sleep Temples of the Egyptians. We go
back to your Egyptian priesthood and the Mystery religions - they were
already learning at that time how to use electric shock - they used
electric eels and other things to electrically shock people. They had
already started to learn the use of drugs and herbs to create altered
states and to control people. These were secrets though that were very
closely guarded by these Illuminati families and their Mystery
religion priesthood. But they continued to develop these over the
centuries. Another example of a closely guarded secret was the ability
to do cranial manipulation. During the Middle Ages and even centuries
prior to that, the oligarchical families that controlled the common
people had specialists that did torture for the kings, and they kept
their secrets about torturing to themselves. One of the things they
developed was the ability to do cranial manipulation. You have to be
very careful when you start moving the bones of the skull. A lot of
people don't realize that the skull is not a solid bone, but it has
sutures between the different parts of it, and you can do very subtle
manipulations and move those skull bones. In fact today there is
something called cranial osteopathy. These osteopaths are very skilled
in using their fingers. That developed from the family of bone-setters
who tied back into the occult who had learned the secret occult skills
What has effect has this had in terms of the mind control - the
Cranial manipulation has been kept an occult secret in occult
bloodlines for centuries. And it can be used for good, to heal people.
It can be used to change the way the face looks to improve the face,
or it can be used for evil, to torture someone or to control their
mind. By manipulating the skull you can actually change the way the
person thinks to make them more dissociative, or more compliant, or
develop their thinking in other ways.
Can you explain how they would start using these techniques, and
generally at what age they would start?
When a child is conceived, a lot of them - their very birth has been
an idea from the start. Somebody who is in the Illuminati conceiving a
child in an occult ritual with a woman. It gets very involved as to
how they hide their lineages. Let's put it this way. Not everybody
born to mothers are actually the biological children of that mother.
There is a lot of switching done at hospitals and so forth. The
child's birth has been planned. While the child is in the fetus, they
already begin certain things to test the fetus' mental abilities and
to traumatize that fetus so it will be more dissociated.
How would they do that?
A fetus does not like to be poked, does not like substances that taste
bad. If a mother eats a lot of sugar they have shown by watching the
fetus that these unborn children like the taste of sugar as it
diffuses into what the child is getting from the mother. So if you
combine a lot of these things that are horrific. If you have a lot of
loud noises - and the father is screaming at the mother and throwing
her around and abusing the mother, making the mother very upset. Then
you've got loud music, rock and roll, or screaming or something. You
have also given the mother something to eat that tasted really bad to
the fetus and you can do a number of things that are going to hit that
little unborn child at the same time. It's going to be overwhelmed,
and it's going to develop its ability to dissociate.
To your awareness, has electricity been used in this regard?
Not so much in the traumatization of the fetus. They use that after
the child is born. They oftentimes will have a premature birth. It
happens in many different ways, but one of the methods they like to
use is to have a premature birth because then the child can be
traumatized naturally. There are a whole bunch of natural traumas that
go along with being premature. Your skin is very sensitive, you get
catheters up your behind, and so forth. They want the traumatization
to begin very early on because they want somebody who can trance out
and dissociate from the pain. You are probably familiar with the
Indian fakirs - the holy men in Indian who can walk on coals and stick
pins in themselves and sleep on beds of nails. How does it happen?
Because they are able to dissociate and go into a trance state, an
altered state. The Illuminati want to create individuals who are able
to dissociate very well, because that is part of the requirement to
have the ability to have a multiple personality.
And that is the purpose of the traumatization - is to create that
That's one of the purposes.
What is the importance of dissociation within the total mind
It's extremely important. You will hear a lot in recent times about
electronic mind control, and that's being used to divert people away
from the more important issue of multiple personality disorder or DID.
The ability to create multiple personalities that are programmed is
extremely important. It's why they have the ability to be secret, it's
why they are able to do so much in secret. The electronic mind control
- throwing mental ideas into somebody's brain which are foreign is not
that much of a threat. I have worked with quite a few victims of
electronic mind control and the majority, if not all of them, are able
to recognize that something is being beamed into their heads that is
foreign. But when you are dissociated and you have amnesia between
yourself and other parts of your mind, you don't know what you
yourself in your entirety are all about. For instance I had a
Christian minister who spent some time trying to deprogram - he has
come and visited here to work on his programming. Here you have a
Christian minister who, horrors of horrors, discovers that he has a
dissociated part of his mind which has been functioning within the
Illuminati and these other parts of his mind are satanic. Imagine
being a man of God and finding out that you have parts of yourself
that sacrifice people ... (laughs). That's why this ability to
dissociate into multiple personalities is such a dangerous ability.
Maybe you can talk about the nature of dissociation and how that is
used for controlling somebody and also, as you mentioned, being not
aware of the different identities that are being used for other
People are familiar with dissociation and how the mind has the ability
to function on several tracks. For instance, if you are at a party and
engrossed in a conversation with somebody and you are focused on what
they are saying, and all of a sudden somebody across the room says
your name, and your mind immediately switches and goes "oh they are
calling me over there", well that's one evidence, and there are other
ways to realize that the mind is not one monolithic entity but it is
broken up into components. While you were engaged in that conversation
with somebody, there was one part of your mind which was still
listening to other things. It was a dissociated part of the conscious
mind; in other words, it was dissociated from the conscious. You
weren't conscious of that part of your mind that was listening to the
rest of the conversation but it was.
Hypnosis, trance and dissociation are just different aspects of the
same thing. The Illuminati have learned over the centuries how to put
people in different mental states and the information is learned in
the different states. To access that information best, you need to go
back to that particular state. People realize what I am saying because
when you get into a particular situation that's reminiscent of a
previous experience, that's when your memory is best triggered. They
go a lot further than just using natural dissociation. They have
learned how to create amnesia walls within the mind and basically what
they are doing to the mind is the same as what we do to computers. In
order to make computers functional they had to figure out some way to
section off part of the computer's memory so the user could not access
that memory. It had to nest that memory. You will notice that when you
reboot your computer, the computer reboots itself with memory that you
weren't able to access. That memory was dissociated - in human terms I
guess you could say there is an amnesia wall there.
They know how to build walls in the mind to mentally section off the
mind - and they do this through trauma. If you get a severe enough
trauma what the mind will do in order to continue functioning is
dissociate that trauma with an amnesia wall. Let's say you were in war
and your best friend had just gotten blown to smithereens by
artillery ... his guts are lying out. Your mind may build amnesia
walls around this event and you may not be able to remember it. So the
worse the trauma, the better the amnesia wall.
The Illuminati take a small child about two years old, and they begin
traumatizing it with the worst traumas that are imaginable so that
they can create these amnesia walls. They find these dissociated
pieces of the mind which are just like in a sense floppy disks, then
they put in their programming to the dissociated parts of the mind as
to what they want that part to become. Some of these parts they make
into personalities and they create MPD, DID and then while they are
creating these multiple personalities, they are programming them to be
exactly what they want them to be.
Before we get into what kinds of things they are used for, maybe we
can just go back and talk about how a person is conditioned to be a
total mind control slave, and pick it up when the child is born. What
happens there in terms of the conditioning.
The programmers like to say "this child is a piece of clay", and they
view themselves as the potter's wheel, of course. They are very
skilled in knowing how to take a child and work with that child's mind
to create what they want. We could talk all day about this. One of the
aspects we haven't gotten into yet is their ability to go in and
identify - they use EEG's - backtracking and stepping outside of the
Illuminati for a second ... You've got researchers like Hans Eisneck,
who happened to have been born in Germany and other researchers too
who studied how your average _______ potentials - these are brainwaves
- can be monitored and can be used to see what type of thinking that
brain is capable of. You can use EEG's to determine personality and
IQ. They have correlated their ability to study the human brain with
EEG's to John Gittinger's PAS tests. When a child is born they begin
testing its brain to see what is this person's personality, what type
of thinking is this person capable of, what type of career should be
plan out for this person. So they take the natural bent of the mind,
the natural capabilities of the mind and they work with that. Likewise
when they are doing the traumatization and they are splitting the
mind, they work with the child's creativity and what those pieces of
the mind think.
Typically at what age do these tests start - the EEG's and the
Personality Assessment Surveys ...
They do some of it while the child is still a fetus, and after its
born they start neonatal behavioral assessment skills, the Bailey
Scales and other tests, and within a short time, perhaps by 18 months,
they will be doing EEG's and determining what they want to do. Once
they determine what kind of life they want to structure for this
person, they begin the mind control to structure the person for that
career. This is why people like myself who have a natural intelligence
that has never been connected to any of these bloodlines, we have such
a hard time out there in the competition because the Illuminati can
take a particular child and manipulate things from behind the scenes
and open all the right doors for this person, and they can get them
the grants and the schooling and everything they need and adding
impetus to this person's career is the mind control that is steering
them in that direction too. The end product is you end up with
somebody who is an engineer or a lawyer or a politician who is very
highly qualified for what they are doing.
Once they have controlled somebody, what kinds of things would they be
used to do for the Illuminati?
This has not been brought out very well by other people and maybe it's
just simply because they are not aware of it, but the mind control is
not just to create somebody who is a sexual slave, but it's to
infiltrate and control society across the board. Understand that if
you are going to control something like establishment medicine - you
have to have your people in key positions because the weakest link the
chain is going to break. You can't have any weak links. They salt
their people throughout society in general, from the gutter to the
castles. An example of one group of people that they have created for
modern society are stalkers. In my recent book, Deeper Insights Into
the Illuminati Formula, I go into how they create stalkers and why
they create stalkers.
Let's say you are trying to control medicine because the establishment
medical system brings them in lots of money and the medical
establishment is very powerful, you have to have control of the entire
spectrum of things - the hospitals, what kind of health care is going
to be available, the type of training these doctors are going to get,
they have created secret strike forces like the CCHI and the NCHF that
keep people in line. All of this requires mind control slaves being
salted in throughout the entire system. If you have one weak link -
for instance if you have one person who is practising alternative
medicine and you don't control the judicial system - you are not going
to be able to convict, eg. this homeopathic doctor if you don't
control the judicial system. You have to have this vast secret
apparatus, and until people understand the mind control, they can't
understand how there could possibly be the type of control that they
In order to understand how they are able to control these people that
they have put in key positions in society, we do have to talk more
about the techniques of mind control, and maybe we can go into that
now, of how they are able to effect control over these people. For
example, the trauma.
The trauma would be used for a whole number of reasons, but at the
very basic level when you traumatize somebody to the point where they
almost die, or actually to be more specific they actually do "kill"
these people but they know exactly how many seconds they can allow
them to be killed and still bring them back to life. They manipulate
near-death experiences, they have that down to a science. That was the
major reason that you had the major concentration camp experiments by
Mengele where people were tortured. He belonged to an Illuminati
bloodline and was doing Illuminati research for mind control purposes,
he did a lot of research on twins. They found out exactly how much
trauma you could give different people before you killed them. What
that trauma does is it puts the brain back into a survival mode and
now I have to get into explaining that the popular concept of the
brain being one monolithic brain is real deceptive.
It has been kept very secret but the human brain is actually seven
brains. The first brain of the human mind - the medullah and the pons
- is called the Reptilian Brain because it thinks like a reptilian. If
you are always traumatizing a person, you keep them in their reptilian
thinking or their survival based thinking. Survival based thinking has
certain characteristics. At the very basic level, the trauma can be
used to keep somebody within their survival based thinking. It also
creates fear and there is a whole series that spiritually happen to a
person when they get caught up in fear.
If you think in terms of blackmail, the listener may remember when he
was a child and somebody grabbed your arm and twisted it and said "say
uncle" and of course your arm hurt, and you gave in. That's a very
simple type of mind control. The trauma and the torture can be used in
a very simple way - if you don't comply it is going to hurt. Men who
are slaves are electroshocked in their genitals. It is very painful.
That's a very simple way of bringing someone in line. Then of course
there are ways the trauma is used to split the mind, fracture them
into thousands of pieces, create multiple personality disorder. That's
one of the techniques.
Just to stay on the topic of trauma, what is the importance of
maintaining that trauma in terms of keeping the conditioning intact
and keeping the state of dissociation intact?
They want to maintain a high level of trance and dissociative
behaviour in the victim, so they like to continue traumatizing the
person. As I brought out earlier, there is more involved than just
keeping the dissociative level high. Your also trying to maintain the
person to stay in the reptilian, survival based thinking; trying to
keep them having a spirit of fear controlling their lives, so they
don't slack off. They secretly train the parents of the children who
are being programmed on how to abuse their children so they keep their
children very dissociative. Not only that, if the children are going
to some established religious institute, eg. Catholic church,
Episcopalian church, their priests, their clergymen have been trained
in how to abuse the children. This is why you have such a big modern
day problem within the Catholic church. So many of the priests abusing
children and the lawsuits brought against this church, and some people
have said they think it is going to financially bankrupt the church -
the reason why so much of this is going on is for purposes of mind
Have these priests and clergymen been coerced to participate in this,
or are they part of these Illuminati families? What is their role?
There are a lot of different reasons why someone is a pedophile. One
of the problems within the Catholic church is that there haven't been
normal outlets for sexual activity provided for priests and nuns, and
then they are given these subversive ways to release their sexuality.
Some of them are actually secret satanists and this is part of the
reward they receive from a secret coven. There are various reasons as
to why - some just go along because that's what everybody else is
doing and it is allowed until people put their foot down and say we
are not going to tolerate this. I can talk about a number of cases
where people did put their foot down and say we are not going to
tolerate this abuse of our child by the clergy, and the hierarchy that
should have penalized this person simply promoted them and sent them
to some other part of the country. Why they do it? God knows why each
person has become an abuser.
Can you explain how the dissociation has been used in terms of
programming and the structure of that programming?
The victim of the mind control has had their mind split into many
personalities, actually far more personalities than what the people in
the therapeutic community generally realize. Cisco who I brought out
of the Illuminati has very standard programming in many ways, although
she has unique features to her system of personalities. She had a very
standard grid of 13x13x13 alter personalities. Each one of those
personalities has been given a separate history, separate personality
which has its own likes and dislikes. What they did was turn what was
one person into a whole city of people and the only way the mind of
the slave can function is if it relies upon the master to give it
stability. Imagine if your mind was a whole series of competing
persons, each with their own ideas, likes, dislikes. The only way to
bring some order out of the chaos would be to have some controlling
entity ordering that chaos. Some of the slaves have reached the point
of becoming aware that they are multiples and on the deeper levels
they realize that they need the mind control for their minds not to
break down into total craziness. Another way of looking at it is -
what the Illuminati are doing is creating controlled insanity for
these victims of the mind control to endure the horrific trauma that's
given to them, they have to isolate their memories of that trauma and
the parts of the mind that have to pick up some of that trauma - some
of those parts, in essence, I hate to use the word "crazy", but they
are taking the garbage that's happening and the mind is shuffling and
isolating it. If those walls of dissociation break down, then the
other parts of the mind are going to have to deal with a lot of
Why do you think they needed so many identities to be in place?
If you are going to invest the time to create a robot, you are going
to incorporate as many capabilities as possible and you want to
compartmentalize so everything is secret. One of the reasons why
intelligence agencies function so well - eg. CIA - is that they
compartmentalize everything. You only "know" on a regional basis. They
do the same with these people's minds. A slave may function on many
different levels. He's got his front - they create the best front
possible - his or her everyday life - but then they may want to use
that person for drug smuggling, money laundering, carrying messages,
performing satanic rituals, producing porn movies, assassinating
somebody, spying on somebody - and then you've got internal jobs too.
Going back to what I said earlier, remembering how the mind has been
fractured into many dissociated pieces, and essentially a whole city
of people has been made out of those pieces. In order for that city of
people to function, you have to have different jobs. You will have
some of the older personalities taking care of baby personalities
internally in the person's mind - you have functions - gatekeepers,
hierarchy alters that are controlling other alters - a hierarchy of
personalities. That's a whole science in itself - how to structure
dissociated parts of the mind.
You mentioned the one structure, 13x13x13 grid. Are there other
structures used that you are aware of?
There are many different structures. It all depends on the whim and
fancy of the programmer as he shatters the victim's mind, he can
reassemble that mind however he wants to. He can use a sphere - they
create systems within systems too. A common system within a system is
the cabalistic tree of life.
Do you see similarities in the survivors that you have been working
with in terms of the structures?
Oh yes. That's one of the things - you can have a therapist in one
state, and they will not have know anything about MPD or DID and they
will start working with the victim and call another therapist for help
and taking notes. The victim will say, "I drew these pictures. I don't
know what they mean." "I am fascinated with Star Trek (or the Wizard
of Oz) (Mickey Mouse)". The therapist will call another therapist and
ask what they make of this. If this other therapist is experienced,
they may say "oh hey - I've got somebody who is just like that." All
across the country, there are therapists and then people like myself
who is a minister working with these people who are running into the
same patterns time and time again, the same structures. Like I was
saying, working with people who were in the Illuminati, working with
people that did the programming itself, is really helping my learning
curve too in terms of the structures that are built in.
Another common structure you will see is a lot of mirror imaging,
that's a more of a technique than a structure.
What do you mean by that? The mirroring of an alter?
Mirroring of all kinds of things. That's part of the technique of
That's the purpose of using this mirroring, for example if a therapist
came across one alter, dealt with, there may have been a mirror of
A lot of the therapists think they are dealing with a particular
personality but they are dealing with its mirror image. The systems
are programmed, created so that if somebody starts working with them
there are all these defensive mechanisms that are triggered. One of
the defensive mechanisms is to have mirror image alters take the place
of who the therapist is trying to work with. So the therapist thinks
they have done something but they have actually just played games.
Mirror images of things within the programming itself so that when one
particular personality tries to work on their mind's programming, the
mind is so confusing about what they still internally - that they
can't figure out their own mind.
The best manager is somebody who doesn't have to spend a lot of time
giving instructions to a person. If you are a slave master and you
have to be constantly telling that slave what to do, and constantly
correcting it, and making sure it's doing its job, you become a slave
to the slave.
What you want to do is create a human robot which will be self-
directed and self-correcting so they create hierarchies of alters
within the person and one of the things they do is create alter
personalities within the person's mind who think they are the
So, Ewen Cameron who was a programmer - his victim would have
personalities within them that would think they are Ewen Cameron.
Therefore they would carry out the abuse of other personalities as
they would perceive Ewen Cameron would do it. That's one use of
mirrors. Another use of mirrors is if you are teaming two slaves
together, let's say you and are teamed. I would have personalities in
me that think they are you and you would have personalities created in
you that think they are me and it would further the binding process.
Generally speaking, with people who have this kind of mind control,
how many personalities are you talking about?
A lot. Cisco has 30,000 standard alters and then there are lots of
other dissociated pieces too. That would not be abnormal. The small
part of the therapeutic community that's trying to address DID
generally work with a few front personalities. There are number of
books out there written by people with MPD where the therapist came in
and worked with five or six front personalities. The Illuminati step
back and allow them to integrate some front personalities and the
person is told by the therapist "you are now integrated, you're fine"
and they left therapy, and everybody is happy. The victim thinks they
are free of their MPD, the therapist has made a lot of money and
gotten famous over some book they have written, and the Illuminati is
happy because these are just front alters that have been stabilized.
The system of alters are far more complex than people realize.
What are the dangers involved in dealing with therapy with a mind
control victim, particularly when a therapist may be unaware of the
techniques and structures of mind control?
I have to caution people that some of the best minds of the 20th
century - we have hundreds, if not thousands, of the best minds who
have spent many, many years figuring out how to build these mechanisms
into the mind slaves to protect the programming. In a sense what it is
like - imagine you are going in to try and hack a computer - imagine a
system that is set up so that if someone is not an approved user comes
into the room and looks at the computer, the computer shuts down, the
computer explodes. That's really what you are looking at in trying to
work with a mind control victim - they have a lot of suicide
programming so that if the front alters, the personalities that hold
the body day in and day out - if they were ever to find out they were
in mind control, or that they were a multiple personality, they would
commit suicide. You have all kinds of defensive programs. Not only is
the computer programmed to explode if you walk into the room, but if
you touch the keyboard as an unauthorized user, again the computer is
programmed to explode. Every step of the way there are backup programs
to deceive, to destroy. It is not easy. It is something the novice
does not want to get into. It's something that takes a lot of time and
patience and skill, and a lot of love for the victims too. One has to
really abhor what is going on to have the motivation that it takes to
work with such a complex problem.
What would you recommend for therapists wanting to know more about how
this is done, and how they can help heal the victims?
I strongly recommend our three books - I co-authored these 3 books
with Cisco Wheeler. The one I already mentioned, "The Illuminati
Formula Used to Create a Total Mind Controlled Slave". The sequel to
that which is 620 pages, "Deeper Insights into the Illuminati
Formula", part 1 is how the control comes about and part 2 is how the
help comes about. We've got a lot of good information in there laying
the foundation as to what's happened, and how to begin to unravel what
In terms of your own work, how much success have you had in working
with victims of mind control?
The problem that the mind control presents is overwhelming, and there
are countless therapeutic issues, so there is no end to the different
issues that can be worked on. Cisco and I have freely given of our
time to help any victim of mind control in whatever way we could. The
degree of therapeutic success depends on a number of things. One, it
depends upon the situation the victim puts themselves in. If they are
willing to extract themselves from their everyday life and go
somewhere where it is safe, they are going to do a lot more - work
more therapeutic issues, because the mind of a mind controlled slave
is not going to let its guard down as long as it's not safe. This gets
back into understanding how the reptilian mind and the survival based
thinking can override other areas of the mind. When you become deathly
frightened for your life, your survival instincts take precedence over
the other parts of your brain. If you have been traumatized your
entire life, your survival based thinking is your primary method of
thinking and it doesn't take much to throw you into the fear based
survival based thinking. So the first criteria for doing successful
work with a mind control victim is to get them someplace safe. You
could say that 99.9% of the victims of mind control have never been
given that. Therapists do not set things up for survivors or victims
of mind control to be in any safe situation. When I say safe, I mean
they have to be safe 24 hours a day.
Cisco and I have been able to work with victims to the degree the
situation allowed. There is no end to the work we could do if the
right set-up presented itself. This is why I was hoping to create a
deprogramming centre. There was a man who was CIA who was very
horrified at what the government intelligence agencies had been doing
to people, and I have a friend whom this CIA man knew who also works
at providing therapy for mind control victims. This CIA man wrote into
his will to give a number of millions of dollars to my clients for the
purpose of doing therapy work with mind control victims. And then my
friend in turn was going to give me a couple of million dollars so I
could start a deprogramming centre. This man's will when he died, was
in the Oklahoma Federal Building, and the only copy of the will that
we know about was in there. So I was rather upset when the building
exploded, because that short-circuited our plans to build a couple of
deprogramming centres. Short of building some place that is safe and
that is staffed with competent people, it is extremely difficult to
Even when I have accomplished positive therapy with a victim, all that
it takes for the other side to do is physically grab them and
reprogram them. This is what has happened for me over the past years
in terms of trying to help victims, and as a warning to the public and
the therapeutic community at large, at this point not a whole lot has
really been accomplished to thwart the mind control.
Now in the optimal situation, to what degree have you been able to
free the victims of the control?
Given the optimal situation where we have someone who is safe, we can
take down the mind control. We can do some serious re-structuring and
make some really serious headway in helping a person. We can do some
significant spiritual work with them. There can be some integrating
work begun. There are all kinds of things that can happen. On the flip
side of it, is the work ever finished? I don't think it is, because
the damage that has been done is so extensive, and you never know as a
therapist that you have succeeded in finding every dissociated
fragment of the mind. Remember there are thousands of fragments of the
mind because the traumatization is so prolonged over so many years,
and is so horrific, that you can never be sure that you have gotten
all of the dissociated pieces, and each of those dissociated pieces is
probably going to have programming attached to it.
What is your sense of how many people have been affected by this?
A very conservative estimate - I shouldn't even say estimate because I
have computed it from about seven different angles - a conservative
figure is 2 million Americans have been programmed with trauma based
total mind control.
And that's just in the USA?
And is it your sense that this is going on world-wide?
Oh indeed yes, it is. More with your primary political powers. You've
got programming going on in Europe, Russia, the U.S.A. - those are
your primary areas of programming but in other places too.
I would like to talk about some of the other techniques now of mind
control. How has electricity played a role?
Electric shock has been a standard part of the abuse, and it serves as
a form of trauma. And stun guns are a standard item to keep the slaves
in line and also to erase their memories. They might use perhaps a
120,000 DC volt stun gun to erase and compartmentalize fragments,
memories of a slave who has just been used. When you shock a person,
it destroys the short-term memory. It fragments it, 24 hours either
way of the event. They can also use the shock treatments like Ewen
Cameron to splinter the mind so that's electro-shock. Elecricity has
been used in terms of implements or devices that have been implanted
into people and also used in equipment that will throw thoughts into a
peron's mind. You have microwave towers going up vectoring in ELF
waves into people's minds. So electricity is being used in a lot of
high tech ways, or electromagnetic waves are being used in a lot of
high techn ways ...
They have different machines - EDOM electronic dissolution of memory
where they wipe out your memory; harmonic machines that are used which
some of your speakers have probably talked about - these machines can
be used for the deprogramming work too. Electricity is also used in
the flip way in that since the human brain gives off frequencies, they
go in and scan a person's personal frequencies they are giving off.
There is a prime freq - which is the primary frequency a person gives
off and that can be used to identify them from a distance. They know
the different frequencies that the brain uses. Coming at it from a
different angle, if you think of the brain when it creates a
particular thought, it gives off particular frequencies. They simply
created particular thoughts within a person and monitored electrical
impulses along with that thought, fed that into computers. I am
simplifying what they did - but basically that's what they have done
to decode being able to read what their brain is thinking. If you
monitor the frequencies that are being given off by a person, then you
can monitor what their thoughts are. So not only can you throw
particular thoughts into people's heads, but they can monitor their
thoughts too.A lot of the monitoring and instilling of thoughts, etc.
are being done with implants.
Can we just go back to electroshock. You mentioned that it is used to
erase memories perhaps of the identity of the people who are doing the
programming. But don't they run the risk of erasing the programming
itself? How do they deal with that?
This gets back into understanding how the programming is put in, and
the level at which it is put in. Remember we talked about dissociated
states? The primary programming that is put in is put in at a comatose
level. There are different levels that you can program somebody to -
if you start out with an adult, for instance, the CIA's nomenclature
is mind control Level 5. Somebody who has been given mind control to
the 5th level generally has some cover story like for Roseanne Barr -
she had an automobile accident apparently as a teenager. They take
these people in and they are taken down to a comatose level where
their bodies are comatose for quite a long period of time, and the
programming is put in at an extremely deep level. At a level where
your mind is regulating your heartbeat. The programming is put in and
it is nested in at an extremely deep level. When they destroy short-
term memory with electroshocking, that's not even coming close to the
deep programs - that is just affecting the short-term memory.
Have they deliberately regulated the amount of electricity in terms of
achieving a desired effect?
Oh yeah. Everything is extremely scientific. This is why they had to
do a lot of the horrific testing during WWII in the concentration
camps. You just don't traumatize a person indiscriminately or you will
kill them. You have to know what you are doing. They have doctors and
heart monitoring equipment. The fundamental programming is done in
hospital settings, or hospital-type settings. That's why a lot of the
VA hospitals here in the USA - actually all of the VA hospitals - have
been used for programming. A lot of the other civilian hospitals have
also had particular wards set up where they were able to do
programming. They are monitoring heartbeat, they know just how far to
push them. When they start going into a near-death experience they
know exactly when they can electroshock them to bring them back to
life, etc. It is very skilled. They have to be very skilled in the
drugs they use, how and when they administer them, what they do when
the person is under drugs. What they do is not haphazard.
So a lot of experimentation has gone into refining these techniques?
Can you tell us if you know anything about the development of brain
implant technology and that has been used for mind control?
There are six different types of implants. Audio implants that are
used to allow the victim to hear something. Body manipulation implants
that are put in to manipulate the body in some way, perhaps to release
a hormone or to keep them from getting pregnant or to torture them, or
something like that. Then you have a visual holographic implant which
will give a holographic image to the person. You have implants that
are mimics or brain link implants that if I want to directly download
something to the brain, those are very secret implants. The implants
are not used across the board with all mind controlled slaves. There
are select groups that are receiving the implants and like the mimics,
implants are only going to a select group. Then you've got your
torture and muscle stimulating implants. Then the one everybody hears
about - the tracking and ID implants - that everybody is so concerned
about. Those are the implants that were given to a lot of American
soldiers in Desert Storm. They were told they needed implants so that
the global positioning system could keep track of them so they
wouldn't get lost in the desert.
I am curious about the actual implants themselves in terms of how they
are implanted and approximately the size through the development of
The development has gotten really high tech. You have several types of
development here that need to be brought out. One, that's called
"nanobots" - nanotechnology which are tiny little robots that range
from 10-1/1000 billionth of a meter. The word "nano" means billionth -
we are talking extremely microscopic robots here that are able to
replicate themselves. Molecular size robots. Possibly the listeners
have heard of the Scanning Tunnelling microscope? There are different
names for it, but it is a little device that can actually see a single
atom, and actually pick up atoms and move them. That's used to develop
these nanobots which are robots that can self replicate. You have
fibre optics that have been developed and you will have some victims
that if they get rid of their fibre optics - the fibre optic that is
stuck into the victim often looks like a hair.
What typically are these fibre optic implants used for?
Good question. I wish I really knew the answer for that. Fibre optic
glass will carry signals, so in broad I can say the implants are being
used to transmit signals, I know that much. But I don't know all the
ins and outs of what kinds of signals are being sent. I have one
victim of mind control who had been sitting in a restaurant - it is
sort of analgous to a blowgun where they have hit her with something
that looks just like a little hair and the fibre optic filament embeds
itself in her skin. While she is sitting there eating, they have shot
this filament into her. Fortunately she noticed they had done this,
and pulled it out. I had female victims who had fibre optics that was
disguised as hair that were put on their bodies. I don't know the full
role of the fibre optics but I know it is involved in communications.
One of the more dangerous developments are your organic bioprocessors.
These are molecular computers that are made up of DNA material. You've
got DNA templates and you can also have carbon chains that are used.
What they do is - with this biomaterial that is made into a mini-
computer, they will link that to a virus and viruses oftentimes have a
particular area of the body they like to migrate to. For instance a
neurotropic virus will migrate to the nervous system or a dermatropic
virus will migrate to the skin, pneuomtropic virus will go to the
lungs. They attack their little organic viral processor to this virus.
How do you get a virus into a person? There are a dozen different
ways, it is easy to get a virus into a victim's/host's body. So once
these viruses migrate to that area of the body they prefer, you've got
a tiny little implant that is then doing whatever function it is
programmed to do. These are extremely difficult to locate.
I have noticed in victims that have the virus implants that there will
be a sort of central control implant a lot of times put in the bottom
base of the neck. The central command implant will be receiving
external signals and then will in turn monitor the body suit of
implants. Some of the victims of these implants seem to have gotten
some relief from being able to kill the viruses. There are some
alternative medical methods that might be suggested to the victims
that could take out these bio processors.
For some of the larger implants, have victims been able to locate and
remove these kinds of implants somehow?
Yes. There have been a number of victims that have been identified -
have been able to take xrays, have been able to get other types of
scanning mechanisms. There were three victims of electronic mind
control that managed to, as a group, get into an Anacoic Chamber and
get results when their signals were pinpointed as to source. They had
to smuggle the paperwork out from the lab in their bras because the
lab technicians were afraid of getting into trouble. Different victims
of electronic mind control have managed to get some proof or have
actually pulled some of it out. There are some doctors that actually
have some of the implants. There are a few clean surgeons that are
willing to help victims. I might mention the word Syntel here ...
that's an important word for people to be familiar with in
understanding implants. Syntel is something that has been discussed by
our government repeatedly in some of their conferences. You will hear
the military in some of their semi-secret conferences discussing
Syntel. That's short for synthetic telepathy which means sending to
victims voices and thoughts - so these victims of Syntel are people
who are receiving voices and thoughts electronically.
That seems to be able to be used in a couple of different ways in
terms of control, but also in terms of the situation with people
claiming they are hearing voices who are often labelled schizophrenic
or psychotic ... it seems to be a way of discrediting these people.
Something that was developed and used during the space program which
is called biomedical telemetry - these are transmitters and receivers
located at the base of the skull which record the body functions and
the brain waves, and send it back to some computer somewhere. In fact
in working with victims of electronic mind control I can say with
certainty that is what is being done is that there are computers that
are programmed with artificial intelligence that are their handlers.
Rather than having a human handler day in and out, three shifts of
human handlers controlling the victim of electronic mind control, they
have computers with A.I. Then if the victim does something that throws
the computer, the computer will signal a human to come and get
involved. It's been kind of interesting, the stories that victims have
told me about how they outsmarted the computers that were trying to
I would like to talk about, and you have mentioned the name, Josef
Mengele. What role did Josef Mengele play in developing mind
He is like the father of modern programming. Prior to Josef Mengele,
the Illuminati had created MPD, but the training of those
personalities had been non-scientific. Mengele worked a lot with
twins, understanding trauma and how to use trauma. If somebody is
about to die and they are rescued by their programmer, they trauma-
bond with that programmer. He learned how to trauma-bond his victims
to him. A lot of victims of mind control in Israel and other parts of
the world still refer to him as "Papa", they love him. And if the
programmer knows what he's doing, he can totally trauma-bond that
victim to him to where they love the programmer.
It's like the Stockholm Syndrome ...
He was taking programming into the world of science. In January 1945,
when it was very clear that the Nazis were going to lose, the
Illuminati smuggled him out into the West where he continued doing
programming. I have worked with a number of his mind control victims.
One of his victims, a lady here in this area, was actually in a
concentration camp with Mengele; as a child was experimented on and
watched those horrors and had mind control done in the concentration
camps. And then she was smuggled via the Ratline actually through your
country, Canada, came through the Catholic Church collaborators,
brought her through Quebec and then to Portland. And Josef Mengele
continued his mind control here in the States.
Was Mengele involved in mind control experiments previous to WWII?
I don't believe so. He was in the Illuminati. His family is
Illuminati, but I don't have any knowledge of him doing it prior to
the War. Of course I don't know the whole story there. But there was
some reason as to why he was chosen for the position that he received.
There may be more to the story than I know.
It appears that a lot of experimentation was done on the victims of
the Holocaust. You have mentioned trauma experiments. What other kinds
of experiments were done as they relate to mind control technology?
One of the things that Mengele was doing, and his friend Ewen Cameron
continued this, was experimentation on eye pigmentation. One might say
what does this have to do with mind control? Well, like I said
earlier, this type of mind control is a total control - the mind, body
and spirit of the victim is totally controlled. It is far more
extensive than people would imagine.
This type of mind control regulates the heartbeat of the victim, and a
lot of other things. That's why the suicide programming can be so
powerful. He started this pigmentation experimentation which Ewen
Cameron ... by the way, Josef Mengele, when he came to the USA was
known by the programming name, Dr. Green and Ewen Cameron was known as
Dr. White within the Illuminati circles. Cisco Wheeler (whom I brought
out of the Illuminati) - her father was known as Dr. Black.
You are saying that Cameron and Mengele were associates and friends?
Yeah. Cisco would occasionally see these men (Drs. Green, and White
and there was a Dr. Blue) meet at her father's house out here on the
West Coast. They would come together and discuss their programmings,
methodologies, networking, talking with each other, etc. They were
Program Masters within the Illuminati. Mengele spent a lot of time
travelling world-wide, not just here in the Northwest. Cameron tended
to work on the East coast and as you are familiar, the Rockefeller
Foundation gave him $40,000 back in 1943 to create the Allen Memorial
Institute. Even before Mengele came to this country, Cameron was
already part of their Illuminati system.
Did Ewen Cameron have a particular role within the development of mind
control technology? I understood he specialized in electroshock and
went around the country teaching other psychiatrists on methods of
electroshock? Was that his role, or was it broader?
They were all working on how to refine the thing - these were your top
of the line programmers. Mengele was really the father of it all, and
he taught a lot of what he knew to Drs. White, Black and Blue. Mengele
was the one who had the opportunity to experiment on a lot of people
in the concentration camp where he did all kinds of weird and sadistic
things. Cameron and the others were both operational and experimental.
If you look at how the military and science works, when they discover
something that is workable, they will take that information and they
will make a new technology out of it, but they will continue
experimenting to improve on what they have done. So, at the same time
that Cameron was using electroshock to split the minds of his victims,
he was also looking for ways to refine what they were doing.
Eventually they came back, and after several decades of looking at the
results of the different programming - they took the best programming
scripts and the best methodologies and upgraded their programming in
general. The programming that is being done today is far more
sophisticated and far more refined than what they were working on and
operationally carrying out.
What special significance do twins have for Mengele?
If you are going to do a scientific experiment, you know you have need
of a control group (subject). How do you get a control group for
experimentation on humans? You need twins, and you need thousands of
them. Mengele experimented on three thousand twins - that was one of
the "benefits" of being within the Nazi concentration camp system. As
adults and children came through Auschwitz, he had his subordinates
indicate which of them were identical twins. Most of the twins that he
worked on died because he was beyond sadistic. He was also developing
methods on how to bond people and he was learning how to artificially
bond people. I had mentioned earlier how Cisco had been teamed with
three other people who also escaped from the Illuminati. They were all
"twinned" together, they had artificial twinning done to them.
Is it similar to what you were describing before about the
The twinning incorporates all of the 12 sciences of mind control - it
is pretty sophisticated in itself.
To your awareness, did the German Nazis use mind control operatives
Oh yes. They were using them since the early thirties. The Germans and
the British both were creating multiples for intelligence work,
assassination, and so forth. Prior to the outbreak of WWII, the Nazis
were foresighted, and brought Germans to the USA who were trained
multiple personalities. They created a settlement of them in Upper New
York State. That group of people continues to live there as a group.
These multiples who were brought into our country had alters that were
programmed to assassinate by sticking picks into people (key places in
the body) and things like that. They created this settlement with the
idea that if Germany ever would manage to defeat the USA, that these
people would be in place to help them.
Is there any indication that the USA government had used mind
controlled operatives in WWII?
I have not found any indication that they used programmed multiples,
but remember that the leadership of our country was in the hands of
the Illuminati down through our history. To a large degree our
Presidents are related to each other. A lot of people don't realize
how related they are. Ulysses S. Grant, the 18th President, was
related to Franklin Deleno Roosevelt. The Deleno family is an ancient
aristocratic family that originates in Venice. Ulysses Grant was
related via the Deleno family. His greatgrandmother was Susannah
Deleno. Grant was also from the Collins family. In one of my
videotapes, I go into the Grant family and how they tie in with the
Illuminati. One of the reasons I do that is because Cisco is a
descendant of the Ulysses Grant bloodline, a descendant of the Collins
bloodline. This was her ticket into the Illuminati.
Many of our presidents tie back into these Illuminati bloodlines, more
than people realize. There were multiple personalities in our
government during WWII. But it wasn't until Mengele came over that the
Illuminati had somebody with the scientific sophistication to really
get into scientifically programs. The "benefit" we received from
Mengele and Operation Paperclip was advancing our government's
knowledge of how to program innocent children.
I would like to change the topic a little bit. How has popular culture
been used for programming, and why has it been used?
There are different levels that you lock a person into and control.
One is to control their milieu, their environment. It is extremely
difficult for me to talk about all of these issues. They build a
person's frame of reference from the time they were little. I ask
people, "who built your frame of reference? who built your world
view?" From the time you were little, establishment groups - churches,
schools, and so forth - have been steering your education so there
isn't a frame of reference for people to hang the information I would
like to give them. If you don't have a frame of reference to
understand any of this information, it is hard to break through of the
control. By controlling information and what society does, they steer
society as a whole. The schools are used, entertainment, Hollywood,
everything is used. The programming a person will receive will use the
items of everyday life to control them. For instance, Cisco was taught
to smoke as a little child by her father who was her programmer, her
master. With every puff, she was to think about how much he loved her,
and then when she exhaled, she was also to think a programming
thought. So the very act of smoking reinforced the mind control. They
will take buildings in the area the mind control lives in and they
will use those to reinforce the programming. They will use many common
items from the slaves' everyday lives to reinforce the programming
messages that have been layered.
Maybe we can talk about one film that seems to come up in a lot of
survivors' programming - that's 'The Wizard of Oz'. How has that been
It is one of the standard programming scripts that has been used. A
lot of people don't realize that Frank Baum actually wrote 14 Wizard
of Oz books - The Tin Woodsman of Oz, The Land of Oz, Glinda of Oz,
Ozma of Oz. Actually the books were used more in the programming than
the movie. If one goes through and looks at the books, and I extracted
some of the programming scripts and put them in the Volume 2 book so
people could see how Frank Baum's books, whether they were
specifically written for mind control or not, apparently fit in
beautifully with creating mind control scripts. The movie then would
reinforce the scripts that were put in.
Would these scripts be used mainly for manipulating the reality of the
identities being programmed?
Most of the personalities that are created within a mind controlled
slave, do not live in reality. They live in a fictional world. They
work off scripts. For instance if I was going to have a particular
personality pick up drugs, they may hypnotically see the person
handing them the bag of drugs as The White Rabbit and they might see
the bag as some treats or something. They live in a totally fictional
world and since these personalities only hold the body at isolated
points in time, they don't have any cohesive life in which to
challenge the hypnotic programming script they have been given. They
live their entire lives in trance. These scripts are very important to
use to control the personalities that live in their fictional world.
Can you give some other examples of popular culture that have been
used for programming?
Batman, Bewitched, Disney movies. One of the very important Disney
movies was "Fantasia" and in my recent book, "Deeper Insights" I have
eleven pages where I go through minute by minute, scene by scene, in
the movie "Fantasia" and show how Fantasia was created and used to be
a programming foundation. Star Wars movies, My Fair Lady which was
used in the finishing schools for slaves, Stephen King horror movies
are used, Startrek, The Love Boat has been used for the mind control
of their cruise prostitutes, E.T. - alien programming of their slaves,
Alice in Wonderland.
All of these are really prominent in our culture and I am wondering
what the effect is on someone who has been programmed if they see
these movies again on television or in video rental, or in a movie
It just locks in the control and emphasizes the hopelessness. For a
mind controlled slave who is living in a whole culture that is
controlled by these people, why would their mind ever think of trying
to get free? Their spirits were broken when they were children, and
everywhere they look they see the control and the programming.
This isn't to say that some of these tv programs or films have been
deliberately made with mind control in mind, but that they have been
used by the programmers?
Deliberate is more accurate.
So some of these expressions of culture have been deliberately
created. Have you looked into the backgrounds of some of the people
involved in producing them?
Ducktail Cartoons which is put on by Disney contains deliberate
triggers for the children. Deliberate triggers in the advertisements;
deliberate messages and codes. In "Deeper Insights" I spend about
fifty pages going into Disney, who Disney was, what they did behind
the scenes, what the movies are all about. Look at "Beauty and the
Beast" you will see an enchanted ____clock, or you will see the
character Doorknob - protrayed as a person. That's used in the
cartoon, "Alice in Wonderland". Those particular sections will be seen
by an alter in a person's system, and the mind will be made to believe
that they were a doorknob. These are specifically, creatively put into
the films for those reasons.
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