Post by email@example.com Post by Iceman
Daniel Negreanu started a thread a few years ago wondering what would
happen if a player with Power #1 played heads-up against a player with
Power #2, and even played out an actual match with one of his friends.
IIRC the match was limit holdem and Power #2 won easily.
I'm kind of surprised he even felt the need to play it out. Seems
blatantly obvious to me.
Here's Negreanu's post (fixed the formatting):
A little while back, I asked a bizarre question, that apparantly
already created some discussion on RGP. The question I asked was:
If two players of equal skill played heads up (we'll deal with limit
hold'em as that's what we tried), with player A being able to see
hole cards, and player B, being able to see all five cards before
decision, who would win?
Of course, both players would be aware of what the other player
knew. Anyway, we had planned on doing all three forms of hold'em, but
time for just one.
We bought $200 woth of $1's, and headed for the restaurant at the
BIKE. For the first 1/2 hour, Allen was able to see all five cards,
was able to see his hole cards. Playing $2-$4, Allen beat me for $22.
It was then my turn. Now I got to see all five cards, and Allen was
able to see my hole cards. After the same 1/2 hour, I beat Allen for
While obviously one hour isn't exactly conclusive evidence, it felt
obvious to both of us that the player who knew what hand he would have
river held a huge advantage. We didn't bother with the Pot limit or
limit, because that edge would obviously be even greater had we done
The typical problem with seeing the hole cards, is you were ALWAYS
on the defensive. You could rarely play aggressively, and when you
did win a
pot, it was usually much smaller than the one's you'd lose.
Of course, we bluffed, we mixed it up, but still the man who knew
the board could get away so cheaply when he made nothing. The other
to 'guess' the whole way through to the river.
I also found that it was actually easier to bluff when you knew the
turn and the river after the flop, then it would be to bluff if you
opponent's hole cards.
It was also tough to value raise a player on the flop or the turn,
when you knew that THEY knew what was coming! Example, what would you
The button raises and you see that he has 5-6 of hearts? You have
10-10. The flop comes 10h-8s4s.
Do you bet? Maybe. Now what if you bet, and the button raises?
Let's just say you checked, and the 5-6 of hearts bet, and you called.
Now, the turn brought the 2 of hearts. You should probably check
your top set, but what should you do if your opponent, who already
Raise, can't be right. So, you are left with the hope that the 5-6
of hearts is on a total bluff, or that he'll hit but it will also pair
That was a an extreme example, of a situation that became very
common after a while.
Anyway, just thought I'd let y'all know how our experiment went.
Based on that small one hour sample, I'd be willing to pretty much
in the world with my cards face up, if I knew what was coming on th
turn, and river...
An interesting response by expert player and theorist Tom Weideman, in
Post by firstname.lastname@example.org
While obviously one hour isn't exactly conclusive evidence, it felt obvious
to both of us that the player who knew what hand he would have by the river
held a huge advantage. We didn't bother with the Pot limit or no limit,
because that edge would obviously be even greater had we done that.
I'm really surprised no one here corrected you on this. You MIGHT be
right about no limit, but assuming the stacks are deep, I'm pretty
the guy who knows both hands is going to kick ass in pot limit.
Think about the spot the other guy is in on the river. His "foresight
advantage" is gone by the river, and now he is up against an opponent
that knows all. Sure, he could charge that player a max bet every
to get to the river, but now the bet size on the river is as big as
those bets combined. The guy knowing both hands could call with any
that is in the lead or has outs against the other hand (and fold the
where he is clearly way behind and the opponent is betting), and then
his edge on the river makes him into a monster.