Discussion:
Genie in the bottle question
(too old to reply)
XaQ Morphy
2007-06-20 21:07:03 UTC
Permalink
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?

1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.

2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.

Choose wisely.

Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com

______________________________________________________________________ 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
Eric Rosenberg
2007-06-20 21:08:04 UTC
Permalink
Can't I just ask for money and skip the poker playing?
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
______________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
Tanya AKA MissT74
2007-06-20 21:09:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
This one, as I could then play accordingly, but if I choose all 5 community
cards, i still don't know what the opponents have and thus would HAVE to have
the NUTS in order to KNOW I won, but with scenario #1, I can wait patiently to
see the flop, turn and river before knowing if my weak little bottom pair is
good or not.

T
Post by XaQ Morphy
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________________________
New Feature: Mark All As Read! - http://www.recpoker.com
Paul Popinjay
2007-06-21 03:05:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tanya AKA MissT74
This one, as I could then play accordingly, but if I choose all 5
community cards, i still don't know what the opponents have and thus would
HAVE to have the NUTS in order to KNOW I won, but with scenario #1, I can
wait patiently to see the flop, turn and river before knowing if my weak
little bottom pair is good or not.
T
Yeah right. What if as a 3rd choice the genie offered to buy you a drink?
doggystyle
2007-06-21 04:41:19 UTC
Permalink
Tanya , Please try not to think . It aint working so well!!
Post by Tanya AKA MissT74
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
This one, as I could then play accordingly, but if I choose all 5 community
cards, i still don't know what the opponents have and thus would HAVE to have
the NUTS in order to KNOW I won, but with scenario #1, I can wait patiently to
see the flop, turn and river before knowing if my weak little bottom pair is
good or not.
T
Post by XaQ Morphy
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
Mark B [Diputsur]
2007-06-20 21:12:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Either! But I'd prefer the 2nd over the first...
Knowing they're on a flush draw will only cost me that
much more money as I try to chase them off the draw
only to build a huge pot for them when they catch on
the river... but knowing all 5 community cards? ;-)
Heh, no more guessing when it's time to play the rags.

Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
FaceDownAcesUp
2007-06-20 21:13:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
Morphyhttp://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
______________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader :www.recgroups.com
Of course you would want to see all 5 cards. That way you how to play
hand most effectively. If you got 3 donks in a hand with you and you
know you're gonna flop a set, it would be nice to know you can just
call or check and let one come off because a harmless card is going to
come on the turn and river.. Also, people won't be able to put you on
hands since you can make ridiculous calls or raises preflop knowing in
advance when you're gonna flop big.

Dumb question. The answer is obv.
w***@gmail.com
2007-06-20 21:15:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
I'm assuming holdem.

2) clearly. The best edge I can get via 1) when entering the pot is
about 80/20. 2) can give me a near lock (if I see a boat is coming,
for example). The few times I go down to a higher boat or whatever
won't begin to add up to 20%.

2) also has the advantage that I can manipulate the betting BEFORE my
cards come, which is going to be far more effective than simply having
a super-read.

The only downside I can see to 2) is that it's so powerful my
opponents will conclude I'm cheating.
da pickle
2007-06-20 21:19:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@gmail.com
The only downside I can see to 2) is that it's so powerful my
opponents will conclude I'm cheating.
This may be the key. They will "know" that you are cheating because you
are. :-)
w***@gmail.com
2007-06-20 21:22:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
Post by w***@gmail.com
The only downside I can see to 2) is that it's so powerful my
opponents will conclude I'm cheating.
This may be the key. They will "know" that you are cheating because you
are. :-)
If you fully exploit the advantage in each case, they'll catch on far
quicker in 2) because you'll be acting and then later having the board
justify your plays. People will catch on.

With 1), they'll just think you open and read people very well.
Mark B [Diputsur]
2007-06-20 21:23:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
Post by w***@gmail.com
The only downside I can see to 2) is that it's so powerful my
opponents will conclude I'm cheating.
This may be the key. They will "know" that you are cheating because you
are. :-)
What?!?
How is it cheating if a poker genie *gave* you the super powers?
You have no idea what the hell you're talking about!

Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
WuzYoungOnceToo
2007-06-20 22:06:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark B [Diputsur]
Post by da pickle
Post by w***@gmail.com
The only downside I can see to 2) is that it's so powerful my
opponents will conclude I'm cheating.
This may be the key. They will "know" that you are cheating because you
are. :-)
What?!?
How is it cheating if a poker genie *gave* you the super powers?
You have no idea what the hell you're talking about!
Really. I'm suprised you didn't cite the TDA rule on genie-granted powers.

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Patti Beadles
2007-06-20 21:22:51 UTC
Permalink
I'm going for (1). That way I'm not restricted to flop games.

-P
--
Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA |
pattib~pattib.org | All religions are equally
http://www.pattib.org/ | ludicrous, and should be ridiculed
www.urbanscapephoto.com | as often as possible. C. Bond
TURD
2007-06-21 02:39:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patti Beadles
I'm going for (1). That way I'm not restricted to flop games.
-P
The fact that the OP mentioned being able to see the flop implies that he's
asking about FLOP GAMES!!!!!
UGH...
Paul Popinjay
2007-06-21 04:06:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by TURD
Post by Patti Beadles
I'm going for (1). That way I'm not restricted to flop games.
-P
The fact that the OP mentioned being able to see the flop implies that
he's asking about FLOP GAMES!!!!!
UGH...
tee hee like a muthafucka
estebanAA
2007-06-20 21:24:33 UTC
Permalink
very easy opponents cards----who cares what on the board its what your opponent
is holding that wins /loses hands --
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
w***@gmail.com
2007-06-20 21:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by estebanAA
very easy opponents cards----who cares what on the board its what your opponent
is holding that wins /loses hands --
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community -http://www.recpoker.com
Want to play heads up? You can see my cards, but I get to look at the
board ahead of time. Think you'll come out ahead?
estebanAA
2007-06-20 21:35:00 UTC
Permalink
i didnt know the other player knew you had super powers---
Post by estebanAA
very easy opponents cards----who cares what on the board its what your opponent
is holding that wins /loses hands --
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community -/
Want to play heads up? You can see my cards, but I get to look at the
board ahead of time. Think you'll come out ahead?
_______________________________________________________________
Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites - http://www.recpoker.com
Mark B [Diputsur]
2007-06-20 21:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by estebanAA
i didnt know the other player knew you had super powers---
Post by estebanAA
very easy opponents cards----who cares what on the board its what your opponent
is holding that wins /loses hands --
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community -/
Want to play heads up? You can see my cards, but I get to look at the
board ahead of time. Think you'll come out ahead?
Promise not to bet until the river and I'll play you!!!
Otherwise, I'd rather have your powers :P

Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
w***@gmail.com
2007-06-20 21:55:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark B [Diputsur]
Promise not to bet until the river and I'll play you!!!
Otherwise, I'd rather have your powers :P
Wise...
da pickle
2007-06-20 21:45:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@gmail.com
Want to play heads up? You can see my cards, but I get to look at the
board ahead of time. Think you'll come out ahead?
How about you show your cards and then just pretend to look at the board
cards. If your opponent "thought" you knew, could you make it worth your
while?

Interesting thought processes.
w***@gmail.com
2007-06-20 22:04:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
How about you show your cards and then just pretend to look at the board
cards. If your opponent "thought" you knew, could you make it worth your
while?
Interesting thought processes.
Good question. I don't know for sure. The advantages of actaully
seeing the board all stem from your ability to pre-value-bet, which
in turn makes it easier to bluff since your value bets are so
dangerous. If you don't really see the board, you SHOULD lose both
advantages over time, but it really depends on your opponent.

- against a weak player who doesn't understand the power seeing the
board gives you and thus doesn't unduly respect your bets, you'll lose
to their more straight-ahead edge
- against a stronger player who understands how dangerous your value
bets are, you can probably bluff very effectively. Whether that's
enough to overcome hole cards, I'm not sure.
- against a very observant player, they'll realize you're not actually
preemptively value betting effectively even though you should be able
to and wonder why. How they would react, I don't know.
FaceDownAcesUp
2007-06-20 22:02:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by estebanAA
very easy opponents cards----who cares what on the board its what your opponent
is holding that wins /loses hands --
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community -http://www.recpoker.com
Ill play you. You can know my hole cards but it still won't help you.
When I raise you preflop with 7 2 is it because the flop is coming
772 or am I just bluffing. If I raise and then bet big on the flop
when the board doesn't appear to help my hand, is it because I know
I'm going runner runner? When I call with my gutshot or shove all-in
what are you gonna do? I could play every draw aggressively like it
was a made hand and you couldn't do jack about it but fold or call and
pray.

The Stallion would run you over even more than usual and have your
head spinning if you gave him this ability.

I would very much like to meet this genie.
da pickle
2007-06-20 22:49:08 UTC
Permalink
"FaceDownAcesUp"
Post by FaceDownAcesUp
I would very much like to meet this genie.
Dream on ... she is a bottle blonde now ... the light brown hair is gone.
Palooka
2007-06-20 23:31:46 UTC
Permalink
"da pickle"
Post by da pickle
Dream on ... she is a bottle blonde now ... the light brown hair is gone.
Doesn't really matter how much you (or Larry for that matter) dream of her,
nor what colour her hair is these days. She has fallen far in the world, and
is now strung out on lasers and slash back blazers.

Palooka
doggystyle
2007-06-21 12:35:20 UTC
Permalink
You are even a bigger idiot than I thought !!!
Post by estebanAA
very easy opponents cards----who cares what on the board its what your opponent
is holding that wins /loses hands --
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________________________
Your Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
Iceman
2007-06-20 21:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
In limit holdem, I'd rather see the board cards.

In no-limit, I'd rather see my opponents' hole cards.
Paul Popinjay
2007-06-21 03:11:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iceman
In limit holdem, I'd rather see the board cards.
In no-limit, I'd rather see my opponents' hole cards.
Genie comes along, a once in a lifetime chance, and you're a picky fuck. If
I was that genie I'd tell you to go fuck yourself, Master.
A Man Beaten by Jacks
2007-06-20 22:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie
Oh, I know! You wish for more wishes!
Iceman
2007-06-20 22:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Daniel Negreanu started a thread a few years ago wondering what would
happen if a player with Power #1 played heads-up against a player with
Power #2, and even played out an actual match with one of his friends.

IIRC the match was limit holdem and Power #2 won easily.
w***@gmail.com
2007-06-20 22:18:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iceman
Daniel Negreanu started a thread a few years ago wondering what would
happen if a player with Power #1 played heads-up against a player with
Power #2, and even played out an actual match with one of his friends.
IIRC the match was limit holdem and Power #2 won easily.
I'm kind of surprised he even felt the need to play it out. Seems
blatantly obvious to me.
Iceman
2007-06-21 14:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by Iceman
Daniel Negreanu started a thread a few years ago wondering what would
happen if a player with Power #1 played heads-up against a player with
Power #2, and even played out an actual match with one of his friends.
IIRC the match was limit holdem and Power #2 won easily.
I'm kind of surprised he even felt the need to play it out. Seems
blatantly obvious to me.
Here's Negreanu's post:

A little while back, I asked a bizarre question, that apparantly
already
created some discussion on RGP. The question I asked was:

If two players of equal skill played heads up (we'll deal with limit
hold'em
as that's what we tried), with player A being able to see players B's
hole
cards, and player B, being able to see all five cards before making a
decision,
who would win?

Of course, both players would be aware of what the other player
knew.
Anyway, we had planned on doing all three forms of hold'em, but had
time for
just one.

We bought $200 woth of $1's, and headed for the restaurant at the
BIKE.
For the first 1/2 hour, Allen was able to see all five cards, while I
was able
to see his hole cards. Playing $2-$4, Allen beat me for $22.

It was then my turn. Now I got to see all five cards, and Allen was
able to
see my hole cards. After the same 1/2 hour, I beat Allen for $40.

While obviously one hour isn't exactly conclusive evidence, it felt
obvious
to both of us that the player who knew what hand he would have by the
river
held a huge advantage. We didn't bother with the Pot limit or no
limit,
because that edge would obviously be even greater had we done that.

The typical problem with seeing the hole cards, is you were ALWAYS
on the
defensive. You could rarely play aggressively, and when you did win a
pot, it
was usually much smaller than the one's you'd lose.

Of course, we bluffed, we mixed it up, but still the man who knew
the board
could get away so cheaply when he made nothing. The other player had
to
'guess' the whole way through to the river.

I also found that it was actually easier to bluff when you knew the
turn and
the river after the flop, then it would be to bluff if you knew your
opponent's
hole cards.

It was also tough to value raise a player on the flop or the turn,
when you
knew that THEY knew what was coming! Example, what would you do here?

The button raises and you see that he has 5-6 of hearts? You have
10-10. The
flop comes 10h-8s4s.

Do you bet? Maybe. Now what if you bet, and the button raises?
Let's just
say you checked, and the 5-6 of hearts bet, and you called.

Now, the turn brought the 2 of hearts. You should probably check
your top
set, but what should you do if your opponent, who already knows the
river bets?

Raise, can't be right. So, you are left with the hope that the 5-6
of hearts
os on a total bluff, or that he'll hit but it will also pair the
board.

That was a an extreme example, of a situation that became very
common after a
while.

Anyway, just thought I'd let y'all know how our experiment went.
Based on
that small one hour sample, I'd be willing to pretty much play anyone
in the
world with my cards face up, if I knew what was coming on th flop,
turn, and
river...

Daniel Negreanu
***@hotmail.com
www.fullcontactpoker.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An interesting response by expert player and theorist Tom Weideman, in
Post by w***@gmail.com
While obviously one hour isn't exactly conclusive evidence, it felt obvious
to both of us that the player who knew what hand he would have by the river
held a huge advantage. We didn't bother with the Pot limit or no limit,
because that edge would obviously be even greater had we done that.
I'm really surprised no one here corrected you on this. You MIGHT be
right
about no limit, but assuming the stacks are deep, I'm pretty sure that
the
guy who knows both hands is going to kick ass in pot limit.

Think about the spot the other guy is in on the river. His "foresight
advantage" is gone by the river, and now he is up against an opponent
that
knows all. Sure, he could charge that player a max bet every street
to get
to the river, but now the bet size on the river is as big as all of
those
bets combined. The guy knowing both hands could call with any hand
that is
in the lead or has outs against the other hand (and fold the hands
where he
is clearly way behind and the opponent is betting), and then adding
his edge
on the river makes him into a monster.

Tom Weideman
Iceman
2007-06-21 14:26:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by Iceman
Daniel Negreanu started a thread a few years ago wondering what would
happen if a player with Power #1 played heads-up against a player with
Power #2, and even played out an actual match with one of his friends.
IIRC the match was limit holdem and Power #2 won easily.
I'm kind of surprised he even felt the need to play it out. Seems
blatantly obvious to me.
Here's Negreanu's post (fixed the formatting):

A little while back, I asked a bizarre question, that apparantly
already created some discussion on RGP. The question I asked was:

If two players of equal skill played heads up (we'll deal with limit
hold'em as that's what we tried), with player A being able to see
players B's
hole cards, and player B, being able to see all five cards before
making a
decision, who would win?

Of course, both players would be aware of what the other player
knew. Anyway, we had planned on doing all three forms of hold'em, but
had
time for just one.

We bought $200 woth of $1's, and headed for the restaurant at the
BIKE. For the first 1/2 hour, Allen was able to see all five cards,
while I
was able to see his hole cards. Playing $2-$4, Allen beat me for $22.

It was then my turn. Now I got to see all five cards, and Allen was
able to see my hole cards. After the same 1/2 hour, I beat Allen for
$40.

While obviously one hour isn't exactly conclusive evidence, it felt
obvious to both of us that the player who knew what hand he would have
by the
river held a huge advantage. We didn't bother with the Pot limit or
no
limit, because that edge would obviously be even greater had we done
that.

The typical problem with seeing the hole cards, is you were ALWAYS
on the defensive. You could rarely play aggressively, and when you
did win a
pot, it was usually much smaller than the one's you'd lose.

Of course, we bluffed, we mixed it up, but still the man who knew
the board could get away so cheaply when he made nothing. The other
player had
to 'guess' the whole way through to the river.

I also found that it was actually easier to bluff when you knew the
turn and the river after the flop, then it would be to bluff if you
knew your
opponent's hole cards.

It was also tough to value raise a player on the flop or the turn,
when you knew that THEY knew what was coming! Example, what would you
do here?

The button raises and you see that he has 5-6 of hearts? You have
10-10. The flop comes 10h-8s4s.

Do you bet? Maybe. Now what if you bet, and the button raises?
Let's just say you checked, and the 5-6 of hearts bet, and you called.

Now, the turn brought the 2 of hearts. You should probably check
your top set, but what should you do if your opponent, who already
knows the
river bets?

Raise, can't be right. So, you are left with the hope that the 5-6
of hearts is on a total bluff, or that he'll hit but it will also pair
the
board.

That was a an extreme example, of a situation that became very
common after a while.

Anyway, just thought I'd let y'all know how our experiment went.
Based on that small one hour sample, I'd be willing to pretty much
play anyone
in the world with my cards face up, if I knew what was coming on th
flop,
turn, and river...

Daniel Negreanu
***@hotmail.com
www.fullcontactpoker.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An interesting response by expert player and theorist Tom Weideman, in
Post by w***@gmail.com
While obviously one hour isn't exactly conclusive evidence, it felt obvious
to both of us that the player who knew what hand he would have by the river
held a huge advantage. We didn't bother with the Pot limit or no limit,
because that edge would obviously be even greater had we done that.
I'm really surprised no one here corrected you on this. You MIGHT be
right about no limit, but assuming the stacks are deep, I'm pretty
sure that
the guy who knows both hands is going to kick ass in pot limit.

Think about the spot the other guy is in on the river. His "foresight
advantage" is gone by the river, and now he is up against an opponent
that knows all. Sure, he could charge that player a max bet every
street
to get to the river, but now the bet size on the river is as big as
all of
those bets combined. The guy knowing both hands could call with any
hand
that is in the lead or has outs against the other hand (and fold the
hands
where he is clearly way behind and the opponent is betting), and then
adding
his edge on the river makes him into a monster.

Tom Weideman
John_Brian_K
2007-06-21 15:34:12 UTC
Permalink
Pretty good question Morph.

Knowing what you are going to have when the hands are shown down is a
great advantage.

Knowing what your opponent has in the hole is also a big advantage.

I am pretty sure people have already commented on this, but I will say
all things being equal and the other player NOT having the opposite
ability will effect MY decision.

Assuming that you have one or the other and you play your normal room
with noone else having any sort of magical powers and taking out the
ethical questions that PeePee brought up I would take knowing the
board all the way and what I will have at showdown. It is all % if
you are talking LHE and NLHE is all about knowing the player. Is the
player in NLHE (deepstack) going to go all in with AA preflop when you
know you have 8-7 and will end up with the winning hand or is he the
type of player that will never go all in? Will you be able to play
this same scenario in such a way all the way to the river that will
make your opponent think his AA is good?

LHE if you knew you were going to end up with a straight with a flush
possibility on the board are you going to play the hand strong/weak/or
not at all being afraid of the flush? Will you play the 5-6 you get
dealt if you knew you were going to flop a set, but there being a
flush and a straight possible on the board by the river?

I would have to say that sitting down looking at your hole cards and
seeing 4-8 and knowing the board will be 5c-6d-Ah-2s-7h would be a big
plus because obviously you would never play this hand preflop in most
situation, but being able to raise with it and knowing you have the
nuts is a big bonus.

Just some random thoughts, but personally I play LHE and would prefer
to see the board as opposed to my opponents cards because as someone
else already mentioned most good players can already put people on a
range of hands if they are a winning player. To be able to add to
that the ability to KNOW what you will end up with and put your
opponent on a good range you know you can beat, to me, is the better
ability.
A Man Beaten by Jacks
2007-06-20 22:19:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iceman
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Daniel Negreanu started a thread a few years ago wondering what would
happen if a player with Power #1 played heads-up against a player with
Power #2, and even played out an actual match with one of his friends.
IIRC the match was limit holdem and Power #2 won easily.
In limit hold'em there is generally significant play on the turn and river.
In deep stack NL, similarly. In tournament play, a lot of the play is done
preflop. In capped buyin NL, play is often done by the flop and turn.

Also, the real issue is not whether power #1 beats power #2 heads-up, it
is which power fares best against people lacking any powers at all, even
the power to play poker well.

Unless either power also came with the power to dodge bullets, knives,
and fists, I wouldn't want to play using them against good players, who
would probably not care how exactly you were cheating, but figure you
needed killing on general principle.
FaceDownAcesUp
2007-06-20 22:31:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Man Beaten by Jacks
Also, the real issue is not whether power #1 beats power #2 heads-up, it
is which power fares best against people lacking any powers at all, even
the power to play poker well.
It doesn't matter. The best power will be the same for either
scenario. Power one is something people already have to a certain
extent. It's just taking hand reading ability to the highest level.
Big whoop. But power 2 is supernatural and can't be simulated under
normal circumstances. That's what makes it the best choice.
A Man Beaten by Jacks
2007-06-20 22:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by FaceDownAcesUp
Post by A Man Beaten by Jacks
Also, the real issue is not whether power #1 beats power #2 heads-up, it
is which power fares best against people lacking any powers at all, even
the power to play poker well.
It doesn't matter. The best power will be the same for either
scenario. Power one is something people already have to a certain
extent. It's just taking hand reading ability to the highest level.
Big whoop. But power 2 is supernatural and can't be simulated under
normal circumstances. That's what makes it the best choice.
I actually agree on that, but I don't think it's proven by a heads up match
between the two, which is fallacious. I think even the ability to see the
turn and river once the flop came might be equal or superior to power #1,
and that even being able to see only the flop would probably crush power #1.
Qdog223
2007-06-20 22:15:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
Neither, I wouldn't want to give up my favorite card game.

Qdog223
Peg Smith
2007-06-21 02:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
I would pick #3, asking for a free lifetime supply of
housekeepers/cooks.

Or maybe I'd ask for Johnny Depp to be my love slave.

Wow, this is a tough one.

Peg
Palooka
2007-06-21 02:14:48 UTC
Permalink
"Peg Smith"
Post by Peg Smith
Or maybe I'd ask for Johnny Depp to be my love slave.
Surely only Bobbitt would want scissorhands as a love slave.

Palooka
doggystyle
2007-06-21 02:46:43 UTC
Permalink
No brainer !!  Seeing all five board cards is a much greater advantage. Even if
you see all of your opponents hole cards . You would still lose money in some
pots . If you can see all five board cards , you would always know when you are
going to make the nuts !! Thus you could play in a pot that comes AQ8  on the
flop knowing you are going to backdoor a wheel etc! Knowing your opponents cards
, still leaves several things to be determined .
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________________________
Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites - http://www.recpoker.com
Michael Sullivan
2007-06-25 01:33:25 UTC
Permalink
No brainer !! Seeing all five board cards is a much greater advantage.
Even if you see all of your opponents hole cards . You would still lose
money in some pots . If you can see all five board cards , you would
always know when you are going to make the nuts !! Thus you could play in
a pot that comes AQ8 on the flop knowing you are going to backdoor a
wheel etc! Knowing your opponents cards , still leaves several things to
be determined .
But you make the nuts so very rarely, much less often than you simply
have the best hand, and also much less often than the opponents will
fold to your bluff because while they beat you, they have nothing good.

I'm convinced that knowing all the opponents' hole cards is a bigger
advantage than knowing the cards to come at a table that is not very
shorthanded (the more opponents, the bigger the difference).

I'm not even fully convinced about the heads up game between the two
powers with both players knowing each power yet. It seems that optimal
play for each side is substantially non-trivial and until we have some
inkling of the optimal strategies for each player, I don't think the
answer is all that clear. Tom W's old note about Pot Limit is
instructive.

Paul Phillips asked the following interesting question on his blog a
year or two ago:

If you had magic glasses that allowed you to see all your opponents'
hole cards (they do not know you have this power, although they may
figure out that something is fishy), what kind of equity would you
require to call an all-in with cards to come early on in a deep stack NL
tournament, say the WSOP ME?

70%? 80% 90%? More than 90%?

This essentially reduces to "how often do you think you would win this
event if you had this power (and nobody else did or knew that you had it
unless they could figure it out on their own)?
- ikabopo -
2007-06-21 04:25:32 UTC
Permalink
This choice is not even close. Anyone who would not choose choice #1
has no understanding of what poker is about. Are any of you familiar
with the Fundamental Theorem of Poker? Every time you play differently
than you would if you could see your opponent's hole cards, they gain;
and every time your opponent plays differently than he would if he could
see your hole cards, you gain. If you had superpower #1, you would
never, ever, ever make an incorrect decision again. NEVER!!! Do you
understand the magnitude of this? Poker is a game of decisions, and
making the correct decision is the object of poker. With power #1, you
never get your money in bad! NEVER!!! Can you imagine never getting
your money in bad? It's a poker player's paradise.

Choosing power #2 would only let you know if you are or aren't going to
make a hand. There's no guarantee that you'll be able to get your
opponents to pay off the hands that you are going to make. And, you are
going to make a weak hand more often than not. The hands that you do
make the nuts or close to it don't come very often, so your ability to
attack pots is limited at best with power #2.

But if you have power #1, not only do you never get your money in bad,
but every pot where your opponents have no hand and no draw is there for
the taking, regardless of what you yourself hold. Considering that
people generally make weak hands more often than strong hands, that's a
lot of pots that can be easily won regardless of your own holdings.

The same is true for all forms of Hold 'Em, including Limit. With power
#1, you can make sure that EVERY play you make is an overlay, and you
can fold EVERY underlay, without any mistakes. If you do this, the math
will take over and you will do nothing but make money over the long
term.

I wonder if this question was thrown out there to identify which posters
know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to poker, and
which posters are COMPLETE buffoons. If that was the intention, the
dopes have been exposed.

-ikabopo-



Genie in the bottle question

Group: rec.gambling.poker Date: Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 2:07pm (EDT-3) From:
***@webnntp.invalid (XaQ=A0Morphy)
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
______________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
FaceDownAcesUp
2007-06-21 05:01:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by - ikabopo -
This choice is not even close. Anyone who would not choose choice #1
has no understanding of what poker is about. Are any of you familiar
with the Fundamental Theorem of Poker? Every time you play differently
than you would if you could see your opponent's hole cards, they gain;
and every time your opponent plays differently than he would if he could
see your hole cards, you gain. If you had superpower #1, you would
never, ever, ever make an incorrect decision again. NEVER!!! Do you
understand the magnitude of this? Poker is a game of decisions, and
making the correct decision is the object of poker. With power #1, you
never get your money in bad! NEVER!!! Can you imagine never getting
your money in bad? It's a poker player's paradise.
Choosing power #2 would only let you know if you are or aren't going to
make a hand. There's no guarantee that you'll be able to get your
opponents to pay off the hands that you are going to make. And, you are
going to make a weak hand more often than not. The hands that you do
make the nuts or close to it don't come very often, so your ability to
attack pots is limited at best with power #2.
If you know the 5 community cards in advance then you're literally
playing every hand. I think if you play every hand dealt to you you're
gonna make the nuts or close to the nuts a lot more often then you
think.

Getting people to pay you off would be easy. Besides the fact you will
be playing any 2 cards in any position in all sorts of weird ways, you
can just flip your cards over and show your opponent you're on a draw
and make him think he's ahead when you know you're gonna hit.
Post by - ikabopo -
I wonder if this question was thrown out there to identify which posters
know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to poker, and
which posters are COMPLETE buffoons. If that was the intention, the
dopes have been exposed.
-ikabopo-
lol ok.
Mark B [Diputsur]
2007-06-21 05:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by - ikabopo -
This choice is not even close. Anyone who would not choose choice #1
has no understanding of what poker is about. Are any of you familiar
with the Fundamental Theorem of Poker? Every time you play differently
than you would if you could see your opponent's hole cards, they gain;
and every time your opponent plays differently than he would if he could
see your hole cards, you gain.
Fuck Sklansky's TOP - He never considered magical genie powers so
you can throw his entire theory out the window.
Post by - ikabopo -
If you had superpower #1, you would never, ever, ever make an
incorrect decision again. NEVER!!! Do you understand the magnitude
of this?
Yup... means I'm losing money as I'll never crack AA with my 25o
Taking all the fun out of the game for me already!
Post by - ikabopo -
Poker is a game of decisions, and making the correct decision is
the object of poker. With power #1, you never get your money
in bad! NEVER!!!
So you're giving up on all of your draws... even when you may
have implied odds to go after a stack?
Post by - ikabopo -
Can you imagine never getting your money in bad?
It's a poker player's paradise.
Make correct decisions on every street and watch the dealer
push the pot the other way in spite of it... that's paradise?
Post by - ikabopo -
Choosing power #2 would only let you know if you are
or aren't going to make a hand.
Choosing #2 will let you know your EXACT hand a split
second after being dealt your hole cards...
Post by - ikabopo -
There's no guarantee that you'll be able to get your
opponents to pay off the hands that you are going to make.
Correction, much better chance of getting paid off.
Who's going to think I hit the backdoor flush when I raised
every street?
Post by - ikabopo -
And, you are going to make a weak hand more often than not.
Well, you have to lose a few hands so people don't catch on to
your magical powers... duh! :P
Post by - ikabopo -
The hands that you do make the nuts or close to it don't
come very often, so your ability to attack pots is limited
at best with power #2.
They come often enough to KILL the cash games and
win any tourney!
Post by - ikabopo -
But if you have power #1, not only do you never get your
money in bad,
Didn't I already shoot that argument down?
Post by - ikabopo -
but every pot where your opponents have no hand and no
draw is there for the taking, regardless of what you yourself
hold.
Unless they have power #2... wouldn't you be in for a nice
surprise when they hit their 1 & 2 outers to rape you.
Post by - ikabopo -
Considering that people generally make weak hands more
often than strong hands, that's a lot of pots that can be easily
won regardless of your own holdings.
Again, stay away from those with power2 - or you'll go broke!
Post by - ikabopo -
The same is true for all forms of Hold 'Em, including Limit.
Who the hell is going to play limit if they have super-powers?
Please... be realistic here.
Post by - ikabopo -
With power #1, you can make sure that EVERY play you
make is an overlay, and you can fold EVERY underlay,
without any mistakes. If you do this, the math will take over
and you will do nothing but make money over the long term.
As long as you stay away from those with power2 as they'll
seperate you from your roll quicker than you can say:
NO FUCK THAT!
Post by - ikabopo -
I wonder if this question was thrown out there to identify
which posters know what the hell they are talking about
when it comes to poker, and which posters are
COMPLETE buffoons. If that was the intention, the
dopes have been exposed.
Yes, you have.

Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
Grip
2007-06-21 05:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by - ikabopo -
This choice is not even close. Anyone who would not choose choice #1
has no understanding of what poker is about. Are any of you familiar
with the Fundamental Theorem of Poker? Every time you play differently
than you would if you could see your opponent's hole cards, they gain;
and every time your opponent plays differently than he would if he could
see your hole cards, you gain. If you had superpower #1, you would
never, ever, ever make an incorrect decision again. NEVER!!! Do you
understand the magnitude of this? Poker is a game of decisions, and
making the correct decision is the object of poker. With power #1, you
never get your money in bad! NEVER!!! Can you imagine never getting
your money in bad? It's a poker player's paradise.
Choosing power #2 would only let you know if you are or aren't going to
make a hand. There's no guarantee that you'll be able to get your
opponents to pay off the hands that you are going to make. And, you are
going to make a weak hand more often than not. The hands that you do
make the nuts or close to it don't come very often, so your ability to
attack pots is limited at best with power #2.
But if you have power #1, not only do you never get your money in bad,
but every pot where your opponents have no hand and no draw is there for
the taking, regardless of what you yourself hold. Considering that
people generally make weak hands more often than strong hands, that's a
lot of pots that can be easily won regardless of your own holdings.
The same is true for all forms of Hold 'Em, including Limit. With power
#1, you can make sure that EVERY play you make is an overlay, and you
can fold EVERY underlay, without any mistakes. If you do this, the math
will take over and you will do nothing but make money over the long
term.
I wonder if this question was thrown out there to identify which posters
know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to poker, and
which posters are COMPLETE buffoons. If that was the intention, the
dopes have been exposed.
-ikabopo-
Genie in the bottle question
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
Morphyhttp://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
______________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader :www.recgroups.com
I'm pretty sure you're being sarcastic.

-Grip
Paul Popinjay
2007-06-21 04:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Everyone in this thread has admitted that he would cheat if the genie gave
them a chance to cheat. Is Paul Popinjay right on this one or what? ALL of
you people have said you would cheat. See? I have been right all along.
This is what I have been saying about people all along and all of you people
just proved I was right. If their were no laws against killing, raping, and
pillaging, then there is not a person on this newsgroup who would not freely
kill, rape, and pillage, if it were not for the threat of doing time in
prison. The issue of morality has nothing to do with it. None of you in
this thread care anything about morality. You all just admitted it. You're
all fucking cheats, if you could get away with it.

Now AIN'T that right? I have just soundly bitch-slapped half of RGP.

-Paul Popinjay
Mark B [Diputsur]
2007-06-21 06:01:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Popinjay
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Everyone in this thread has admitted that he would cheat if the genie gave
them a chance to cheat. Is Paul Popinjay right on this one or what? ALL
of you people have said you would cheat.
Umm, NO!!! Qdog said he'd pass on the powers.
Post by Paul Popinjay
See? I have been right all along.
How are you right all along if I've just proven you wrong?

Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
Paul Popinjay
2007-06-21 06:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark B [Diputsur]
Post by Paul Popinjay
Everyone in this thread has admitted that he would cheat if the genie
gave them a chance to cheat. Is Paul Popinjay right on this one or what?
ALL of you people have said you would cheat.
Umm, NO!!! Qdog said he'd pass on the powers.
Post by Paul Popinjay
See? I have been right all along.
How are you right all along if I've just proven you wrong?
Ok. You got me. I was wrong for once. Just front me off in front of
everyone and embarrass the shit out of me. Just jam it in my ass in front
of the WHOLE fucking newsgroup. Happy now? I notice you were on Smorgass
Bored's killfile list. HA! Laughing my incorrect ass off!

-Paul Popinjay
Mark B [Diputsur]
2007-06-21 06:13:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Popinjay
Post by Mark B [Diputsur]
Post by Paul Popinjay
Everyone in this thread has admitted that he would cheat if the genie
gave them a chance to cheat. Is Paul Popinjay right on this one or
what? ALL of you people have said you would cheat.
Umm, NO!!! Qdog said he'd pass on the powers.
Post by Paul Popinjay
See? I have been right all along.
How are you right all along if I've just proven you wrong?
Ok. You got me. I was wrong for once. Just front me off in front of
everyone and embarrass the shit out of me. Just jam it in my ass in front
of the WHOLE fucking newsgroup. Happy now? I notice you were on Smorgass
Bored's killfile list. HA! Laughing my incorrect ass off!
Wrong again! It was my imposter that was on his list! HA! ;-)

Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
Paul Popinjay
2007-06-21 06:18:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark B [Diputsur]
Post by Paul Popinjay
Ok. You got me. I was wrong for once. Just front me off in front of
everyone and embarrass the shit out of me. Just jam it in my ass in
front of the WHOLE fucking newsgroup. Happy now? I notice you were on
Smorgass Bored's killfile list. HA! Laughing my incorrect ass off!
Wrong again! It was my imposter that was on his list! HA! ;-)
Mark, you're starting to piss me off.

Btw, I liked your post about Sklanksy's Theory of Poker. Yeah, FUCK that
theory of poker shit. Wipe your ass with that theory crap, 4-Eyes, I got
the magic genie, mutherfucker.

-Paul Popinjay
kevin cline
2007-06-21 05:46:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
It seems obvious to me that 2 completely dominates 1, limit or no-
limit. Imagine that you get to see my hand but I get to see the
board. You have AA and know that I have 87s. I know the board. You
raise and I reraise. How useful is it for you to know my hand? Would
it matter if I had 72o instead? A more interesting question is how
many cards on the board would the exposed hand have to know to have an
advantage. I expect that just knowing the flop would be plenty.
Mark B [Diputsur]
2007-06-21 06:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by kevin cline
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
It seems obvious to me that 2 completely dominates 1, limit or no-
limit. Imagine that you get to see my hand but I get to see the
board. You have AA and know that I have 87s. I know the board. You
raise and I reraise. How useful is it for you to know my hand? Would
it matter if I had 72o instead? A more interesting question is how
many cards on the board would the exposed hand have to know to have an
advantage. I expect that just knowing the flop would be plenty.
flop: AT7
*why is he betting out with the 72?*
turn: 7
* LOL that's why! well take this beyotch! I'm all in!*
river: 7
NO FUCK THAT!

LOLOLOLOLOL

Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
jgm
2007-06-24 07:46:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by kevin cline
Imagine that you get to see my hand but I get to see the
board.
That's not the question. He didn't say all our opponents also get to make
wishes off this poker genie. He didn't say we had to play headsup against a
player with the opposite super power.

In no-limit, given that my opponents do not also get super powers, I'd take
power 1 every time. Folding big hands that are beat. Never calling a river
bet with the worst hand. Calling/raising all their bluffs. Always knowing
when to bluff on the river. Always getting maximum value when we have the
best hand on the river. There's no real need to make a hand. I'd get all the
money in the cash games just by stealing. I'd win the tournaments just by
stealing.
XaQ Morphy
2007-06-24 17:07:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by jgm
That's not the question. He didn't say all our opponents also get to make
wishes off this poker genie. He didn't say we had to play headsup against a
player with the opposite super power.
Aha, but he did know that based on the history of RGP, this thread would
work itself into power 1 playing vs. power 2. I'm zee puppet mazter
pulling zee ztringz!

Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com

----- 
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
- ikabopo -
2007-06-24 17:22:17 UTC
Permalink
This is exactly the point that I was previously trying to make. Thank
you for articulating it again. Given that your opponents have no
superpowers, to choose power #2 over power #1 is absolutely laughable.

-ikabopo-


Re: Genie in the bottle question

Group: rec.gambling.poker Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2007, 8:46am (EDT+5) From:
***@unavailable (jgm)
"kevin cline" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

Imagine that you get to see my hand but I get to see the board.

That's not the question. He didn't say all our opponents also get to
make wishes off this poker genie. He didn't say we had to play headsup
against a player with the opposite super power.
In no-limit, given that my opponents do not also get super powers, I'd
take power 1 every time. Folding big hands that are beat. Never calling
a river bet with the worst hand. Calling/raising all their bluffs.
Always knowing when to bluff on the river. Always getting maximum value
when we have the best hand on the river. There's no real need to make a
hand. I'd get all the money in the cash games just by stealing. I'd win
the tournaments just by stealing.
Ian Crorie
2007-06-25 08:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by XaQ Morphy
Suppose you found a poker genie who says he will offer you one of 2
possible "super powers." Which would you choose, and why?
1) The ability to see all of your opponents hole cards.
2) The ability to see in advance all five community cards.
Choose wisely.
Jesus Morphy, first "is a straight flush a flush" and now the genie. If
you're building up to "you hold AA on the first hand of the WSOP ME" I'll
get Popinjay to revoke your posting rights.

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