Limit Holdem players - need help with this

[XaQ Morphy]

This was from the 50k HORSE WSOP episode. I don't know chip stacks, but
Huck Seed raises with AK, Eli Elezra calls with KTh. Flop is 923, Eli
leads out and bets, Huck calls. Turn is a 4, Eli leads out, Huck calls.
River is a 2, Eli leads out again, and Huck getting over 6:1 on his call
folds.

Can someone explain this to me? I'm not a LHE player at all, no way, no
how, I won't even pretend to know wtf I'm doing at it. But, it seems to
me that if Huck is calling on the flop and turn it's not to draw to 6
outs, but rather because he thinks he has the best hand. If he thinks he
had the best hand, surely the 2 on the river isn't going to scare him?

Is this just a guy who can't fold AK, or is there some higher level of
thinking going on here that my tiny brain can't figure out?

---
Morphy
***@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

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[Mister Dr Evil 2u]

I saw that and wondered what was going on.  I just figured Seed put Elezra on a
board pair not AA. Seed was then playing catch poker, if an ace hits he wins
but with no pair just trusted his read and gave up.

This was from the 50k HORSE WSOP episode. I don't know chip stacks, but
Huck Seed raises with AK, Eli Elezra calls with KTh. Flop is 923, Eli
leads out and bets, Huck calls. Turn is a 4, Eli leads out, Huck calls.
River is a 2, Eli leads out again, and Huck getting over 6:1 on his call
folds.
Can someone explain this to me? I'm not a LHE player at all, no way, no
how, I won't even pretend to know wtf I'm doing at it. But, it seems to
me that if Huck is calling on the flop and turn it's not to draw to 6
outs, but rather because he thinks he has the best hand. If he thinks he
had the best hand, surely the 2 on the river isn't going to scare him?
Is this just a guy who can't fold AK, or is there some higher level of
thinking going on here that my tiny brain can't figure out?
---
Morphy
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com/

My seldom updated Poker Blog
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobgeorgiou/pokerblog



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[Mister Dr Evil 2u]

Make that a set....u know what I mean...

Post by Mister Dr Evil 2u
I saw that and wondered what was going on.  I just figured Seed put Elezra on a
board pair not AA. Seed was then playing catch poker, if an ace hits he wins
but with no pair just trusted his read and gave up.

This was from the 50k HORSE WSOP episode. I don't know chip stacks, but
Huck Seed raises with AK, Eli Elezra calls with KTh. Flop is 923, Eli
leads out and bets, Huck calls. Turn is a 4, Eli leads out, Huck calls.
River is a 2, Eli leads out again, and Huck getting over 6:1 on his call
folds.
Can someone explain this to me? I'm not a LHE player at all, no way, no
how, I won't even pretend to know wtf I'm doing at it. But, it seems to
me that if Huck is calling on the flop and turn it's not to draw to 6
outs, but rather because he thinks he has the best hand. If he thinks he
had the best hand, surely the 2 on the river isn't going to scare him?
Is this just a guy who can't fold AK, or is there some higher level of
thinking going on here that my tiny brain can't figure out?
---
Morphy
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com/

My seldom updated Poker Blog
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobgeorgiou/pokerblog

My seldom updated Poker Blog
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobgeorgiou/pokerblog



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[johnnyt]

6 to one doesn't mean as much in tourney poker. He is old school, and
it will take a lot to get him off the 3 barrel "rule."

Also in LHE the BB is > the blinds. So saving one big bet is like a
free round of blinds. Nothing to be sneezed at.

Post by XaQ Morphy
This was from the 50k HORSE WSOP episode. I don't know chip stacks, but
Huck Seed raises with AK, Eli Elezra calls with KTh. Flop is 923, Eli
leads out and bets, Huck calls. Turn is a 4, Eli leads out, Huck calls.
River is a 2, Eli leads out again, and Huck getting over 6:1 on his call
folds.
Can someone explain this to me? I'm not a LHE player at all, no way, no
how, I won't even pretend to know wtf I'm doing at it. But, it seems to
me that if Huck is calling on the flop and turn it's not to draw to 6
outs, but rather because he thinks he has the best hand. If he thinks he
had the best hand, surely the 2 on the river isn't going to scare him?
Is this just a guy who can't fold AK, or is there some higher level of
thinking going on here that my tiny brain can't figure out?
---
Morphy
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
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[XaQ Morphy]

Post by johnnyt
6 to one doesn't mean as much in tourney poker. He is old school, and
it will take a lot to get him off the 3 barrel "rule."
Also in LHE the BB is > the blinds. So saving one big bet is like a
free round of blinds. Nothing to be sneezed at.

I guess what I mean is that if he thought his hand was good enough on the
turn to call a bet, the river obviously didn't help Eli, so why fold
there? If he thought he was beat on the turn he should have folded, where
he wasn't getting the odds to draw to 6 outs that may or may not be good.

The way I see it, there are two options for this hand:

1) he thinks he has the worst hand on the turn. Fold.

2) he thinks he has the best hand on the turn. Call the river when the
card doesn't improve his opponent.

---
Morphy
***@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

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[Mister Dr Evil 2u]

I understand what you mean, and I'm right there with you with the why not call.
Maybe he was just softplaying Eli, I want to believe it was his read but we will
never know.  It doesnt make sense from a numbers perspective.

Post by XaQ Morphy

6 to one doesn't mean as much in tourney poker. He is old school, and
it will take a lot to get him off the 3 barrel "rule."
Also in LHE the BB is > the blinds. So saving one big bet is like a
free round of blinds. Nothing to be sneezed at.

I guess what I mean is that if he thought his hand was good enough on the
turn to call a bet, the river obviously didn't help Eli, so why fold
there? If he thought he was beat on the turn he should have folded, where
he wasn't getting the odds to draw to 6 outs that may or may not be good.
1) he thinks he has the worst hand on the turn. Fold.
2) he thinks he has the best hand on the turn. Call the river when the
card doesn't improve his opponent.
---
Morphy
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com/

My seldom updated Poker Blog
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobgeorgiou/pokerblog



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[ruylopez]

Post by XaQ Morphy
it's not to draw to 6
outs,

I don't get this play either, but he's got 10 outs, not that any of them are
very good.


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[Deadmoney Walking]

Post by ruylopez

Post by XaQ Morphy
it's not to draw to 6
outs,

I don't get this play either, but he's got 10 outs, not that any of them are
very good.
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Maybe he was trying a free-showdown call.

[A Man Beaten by Jacks]

Post by XaQ Morphy
This was from the 50k HORSE WSOP episode. I don't know chip stacks, but
Huck Seed raises with AK, Eli Elezra calls with KTh. Flop is 923, Eli
leads out and bets, Huck calls. Turn is a 4, Eli leads out, Huck calls.
River is a 2, Eli leads out again, and Huck getting over 6:1 on his call
folds.
Can someone explain this to me? I'm not a LHE player at all, no way, no
how, I won't even pretend to know wtf I'm doing at it. But, it seems to
me that if Huck is calling on the flop and turn it's not to draw to 6
outs, but rather because he thinks he has the best hand. If he thinks he
had the best hand, surely the 2 on the river isn't going to scare him?
Is this just a guy who can't fold AK, or is there some higher level of
thinking going on here that my tiny brain can't figure out?

Maybe he doesn't buy that Eli has anything until the third bet.

Maybe calling the turn bet is based on a combination of the possibility
that he's still good and if he isn't he might suck out, but on the river,
he hasn't sucked out, and he doesn't think he even might be good
any more.

(And maybe even Huck Seed gets stubborn with AK sometimes, sure
that an ace has to show up JUST THIS ONCE and then gives up on the river
when it doesn't.)

[JG]

Post by XaQ Morphy
This was from the 50k HORSE WSOP episode. I don't know chip stacks, but
Huck Seed raises with AK, Eli Elezra calls with KTh.

Was Elezra in the BB? Otherwise, that's a dumb call.

Post by XaQ Morphy
Flop is 923,

If Eli's in the BB, a raggedy flop may be something that could hit
him, or that he could represent. If Huck was a late position raiser,
Eli could make the assumption that this flop missed him by a mile.

Post by XaQ Morphy
Eli leads out and bets,

My biggest pet peave in LHE -- the donk bet. If Elezra has something
like T9, he'd check-raise, most likely. If he has a 2 or 3, does he
lead? Maybe, maybe not.

Post by XaQ Morphy
Huck calls.

I raise here, at least in a cash game.

Post by XaQ Morphy
Turn is a 4, Eli leads out, Huck calls.
River is a 2, Eli leads out again, and Huck getting over 6:1 on his call
folds.

As played, I would call. Like you indicated, if he felt he was ahead
on the turn, he's likely ahead on the river.

JG

[John_Brian_K]

Didnt see the hand in question ,but will give my opinion based off
what you wrote.

Post by XaQ Morphy
This was from the 50k HORSE WSOP episode. I don't know chip stacks, but
Huck Seed raises with AK, Eli Elezra calls with KTh. Flop is 923, Eli
leads out and bets, Huck calls. Turn is a 4, Eli leads out, Huck calls.
River is a 2, Eli leads out again, and Huck getting over 6:1 on his call
folds.

Chip stacks are important as always and without knowing that it is
very hard to say.

AK obviously as in NLHE a raise is important. On the flop with Eli
betting out I re raise all day in this spot. So that is the firs
thing that makes me wonder. The call is OK I guess drawing to a back
door straight. You do not mention if the AK is suited and the suits
on the board either which would help out a bunch. The turn with Eli
betting out I MAY just call here, but probably come over the top
again. The fold on the river is just stupid. Chip dumping? I have
no idea because I do not know the stacks, but these pro betters make
me nervous. Eli may have had a last longer with someone short stacked
and decided to cut Huck in on some of the action if he dumped some to
him. Who knows. Only reason I can think he would fold.

Post by XaQ Morphy
Is this just a guy who can't fold AK, or is there some higher level of
thinking going on here that my tiny brain can't figure out?

lol You said it.

[John_Brian_K]

That should read those PROP betters.

[Wayne Vinson]

Post by XaQ Morphy
This was from the 50k HORSE WSOP episode. I don't know chip stacks, but
Huck Seed raises with AK, Eli Elezra calls with KTh. Flop is 923, Eli
leads out and bets, Huck calls. Turn is a 4, Eli leads out, Huck calls.
River is a 2, Eli leads out again, and Huck getting over 6:1 on his call
folds.
Can someone explain this to me? I'm not a LHE player at all, no way, no
how, I won't even pretend to know wtf I'm doing at it. But, it seems to
me that if Huck is calling on the flop and turn it's not to draw to 6
outs, but rather because he thinks he has the best hand. If he thinks he
had the best hand, surely the 2 on the river isn't going to scare him?
Is this just a guy who can't fold AK, or is there some higher level of
thinking going on here that my tiny brain can't figure out?
---
Morphy
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

Nothing deep here. Huck made a mistake. He should have either folded the
turn, raised the turn, or called the river depending on his beliefs about
Eli's play. The line he chose was garbage.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org

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