Building a bankroll from scratch and rebuilding after going broke

[Kamekzwzrd]

Recently I have decided to take poker on more seriously and want to build a
bankroll. What advice does anyone have from starting a bankroll from scratch?
Even after taking brutal beats, I do not get gunshy about playing. I work a
normal job and after all my bills are paid I have about $200 a month in spending
money. Would you suggest online or live play to build a bankroll? For the most
parts, I want to improve my cash/ring game ability and know that the only way to
do it is by a combination of reading up and playing more.

I want to start at the bottom: $2/$4 Live and any advice for that level, since
it is an extremely loose but profitable game under the right conditions.

My current ability, I'm mostly a marginal win player with an average of 1-1.5 BB
per hour per limit hold' em session (mostly $2/$4 Limit) but the wins are
skewed. One session, I could lose up to 15 BB and win 25 BB and I am
inconsistent with the wins. I want to be able to average it  on a consistent
basis. So far this month, I have had a losing streak (combination of lack of
focus and cold deck), and I feel that that average is slipping to near 1 small
bet an hour.

Another question I have is, when do you stop playing?  I've always been under
the impression that you stop when you are either: tired or starting to play
badly. Is there any other time that I should walk away from the table to avoid
going bust or breaking even? This is one lesson that I really need to get advice
on this subject because I can tell this is a crucial management skill to know.

I just need some advice on this and I am grateful to anyone who is willing to
offer any.

Paul

PS: My friend was curious to know what to do after you go broke. He recently
went broke online and wants to rebuild and what steps to take before rebuilding.


_______________________________________________________________
Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites - http://www.recpoker.com

[GrimJack808]

Rebuilding after busting your bankroll can be psychologically and
physically taxing. Especially if you have climbed up through the
levels and are used to playing at the higher levels, starting back at
the smaller limits is going to be a challenge. If you are dedicated
and committed however, it will make you stronger in the long run.

What you have to realize is maybe you weren't as strong as you thought
you were when you moved up levels. Perhaps (and only an examination of
your play logs can identify this) you were on a lucky streak when you
thought you had mastered play at a certain level. These two look the
same and are easy to mistake for one another.

But going back and starting at the smaller levels will allow you to
focus on your play and make sure you indeed are a master at each level.

I would suggest a few things at this point.

First, go back and reread the books you read when you were starting
out. A lot of the information in them that at the time you glossed
over because it didn't strike a chord, will upon a reread, stand out.
This advice you are now able to ingest and it will help make you a
better player.

Next, start out with a reasonable bankroll given your financial
condition. If you only have $200 spending money at the end of the
month, try supplementing this by taking advantage of one of the free
bankrolls available through this link:

http://tinyurl.com/8l6c4

Whether you choose the $100 no deposit bankroll at Party Poker, or the
$50 no deposit bankroll at Titan, this will go along way to supplement
your bankroll, assuming you are starting out with only a $200 bankroll.

Finally, you may want to try a variety of different sites to determine
where to play, and when you do this, sign up through a referrer site
that will pay you a bonus for signing up through them, like PSO at this
link:

http://tinyurl.com/82vzo

Not only is this good to do because you get the normal sign up bonus
and extra $60 or $90 bonus from PSO, but it will also give you wide
exposure to a few sites and allow you to find a place where you can
play comfortably. In Las Vegas, people avoid certain poker rooms
because they know the play there is different than what they are used
to. Online probably isn't much different.

Finally, try getting a program that can identify leaks in your game
such as Poker Tracker or Poker Office. You can get them for free
through the link above, but either way, a program like Poker Tracker
will give you insight into your play and help you identify why it is
that your average take is slipping to 1 small bet an hour. No one here
will be able to identify that for you. It is only through seeing hours
and hours of your play that you can identify this and a lot of people
use these programs to coach them to the next level.

As to when to stop playing, you need to focus on that yourself. Don't
play while you are tired, it can lead to stupid mistakes, leading your
average take to plummet. Many people are dead tired, but they don't
realize it because of the adreneline rush from the excitement of the
game. Especially if you are working a full time job. Know yourself!

As far as when to walk away from the table, this is a money management
issue. Many people take 4-5 hours to build up a large bankroll only to
lose it in one hand that lasts only a few seconds. You need to
identify when to stand up, walk away and pocket your profit. This
isn't so easy to do in a brick and mortar environment where you can't
get an immediate seat at another table. Take advantage of it where you
can. If you double or triple your buy in, consider getting up, whether
you put your name back on the list or walk away, you have now secured a
profit. If you are not consistently securing your profits, you are not
doing well.

I hope you find something that will help you in what I have written.

Good Luck!!
--------------------------------------------------------------
$100 Free Party Poker Bankroll -OR- $50 Free Titan Poker Bankroll
No Deposit/No Credit Card (US & CANADA)
http://www.instantbankroll.com/ib.asp?rc=GRIMJACK808

Extra $60 or $90 over and above normal bonus for 12 popular sites:
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[b***@aol.com]

Post by Kamekzwzrd
Recently I have decided to take poker on more seriously and want to build a
bankroll. What advice does anyone have from starting a bankroll from scratch?
Even after taking brutal beats, I do not get gunshy about playing. I work a
normal job and after all my bills are paid I have about $200 a month in spending
money. Would you suggest online or live play to build a bankroll? For the most
parts, I want to improve my cash/ring game ability and know that the only way to
do it is by a combination of reading up and playing more.
I want to start at the bottom: $2/$4 Live and any advice for that level, since
it is an extremely loose but profitable game under the right conditions.
My current ability, I'm mostly a marginal win player with an average of 1-1.5 BB
per hour per limit hold' em session (mostly $2/$4 Limit) but the wins are
skewed. One session, I could lose up to 15 BB and win 25 BB and I am
inconsistent with the wins. I want to be able to average it on a consistent
basis. So far this month, I have had a losing streak (combination of lack of
focus and cold deck), and I feel that that average is slipping to near 1 small
bet an hour.
Another question I have is, when do you stop playing? I've always been under
the impression that you stop when you are either: tired or starting to play
badly. Is there any other time that I should walk away from the table to avoid
going bust or breaking even? This is one lesson that I really need to get advice
on this subject because I can tell this is a crucial management skill to know.
I just need some advice on this and I am grateful to anyone who is willing to
offer any.
Paul
PS: My friend was curious to know what to do after you go broke. He recently
went broke online and wants to rebuild and what steps to take before rebuilding.

First thing I have to say is that 2/4 limit poker is probably not
feasible, considering that the per-pot collection in California is too
much to overcome at that level. I would think the small buy-in NL
games would give you a much better shot to build a bankroll. The
blinds are smaller and you could be more selective before playing a
hand. I notice that the Hustler, for instance, has a $50 buy-in game
and Hawaiian Gardens has even smaller buy-in games ($20 and $40, I
think).

If I were in your position, I would concentrate on playing no-limit,
since your chance of building a bankroll would be much greater and game
selection is very good at this time in the Los Angeles casinos.

As far as what to do when you go broke, the best advice is get or keep
your job and make sure your bills and living expenses are covered.
After that, save for a starting bankroll. Also, while you're doing
this, study and review your past mistakes, read some good poker
literature (borrow from the library if you don't have it at home), and
practice on the free games if you have a computer.

The best time to leave a game is when you get tired or your attitude
has become negative, no matter whether you're winning or losing, but
especially when you're losing.
When you have a good bankroll for the game you're playing, it's much
easier to do this.
When you're building a bankroll, it's much easier to leave with a win
than a loss.

It's taken me many years to be able to implement these habits and it
hasn't been easy, but it's paid off very well.

Good luck to you and your poker career.

Barbara Gallamore

[Overseer55]

Here is my advice (covering everything):

1) Don't play $2/4 or $3/6 live. The rake will kill you. B&M casinos
have a high overhead cost to overcome per table. Therefore, the first
practical level to start at is $5/10 or $6/12. You want a $1500-2000
bankroll before tackling those games. The players at $5/10 and $6/12
are only marginally better than the players at $2/4 and $3/6.

2) Play online until you build up a bankroll of around $2000. Take
advantage of reload bonuses & rakeback (if possible) to minimize your
downswings. The rake at low limit games (anything under $5/10) is
tolerable and definitely beatable. Ideally, deposit $300-400. Start
playing $1/2 until you build up to $600-800. Play $2/4 until you build
up to $1200-1500. Play $3/6 until you build up to $2000.

3) Play within your bankroll. For some people, 100 BB is
enough...other people like to have 300 BB. I have made an Excel
spreadsheet that allows you to track & visualize your progress. E-mail
me at ***@yahoo.com if you want it (there are no macros in it).

4) When you play online, set a stop loss of 15-20 BB for 1 table, 20-25
BB for 2 tables, and 25-30 BB for 3+ tables...unless you are 100% sure
that you are playing your A game. When you are down 20-25 BB, even if
mainly due to bad beats, the likelihood that you will play your A game
decreases drastically. I have violated this rule many a times and have
utterly obliterated a much larger percentage of my bankroll than
necessary...mainly due to the temptation to play higher.

5) Respect everyone's poker ability until proven otherwise. Just
because someone makes a play that you think is fishy doesn't make them
a fish...they might be on a whole other level than you.
Underestimating other people (which ultimately causes you to play
looser against them) can turn a winning session into a losing session
very quickly. That being said...you want to still play against the
worst players you can find.

6) When you play live, make sure you eat meals. I have lost thousands
of dollars (over my poker career) because I didn't get proper nutrition
during a long session at a B&M casino.

7) When you play live and are running bad, take a break. Just walk
around the casino for 10 minutes...but, don't sit at the blackjack
table.

8) Have fun. If poker ever becomes boring...stop playing until you
really want to play it again. You will not play your A game if you
would rather be doing something else.

9) Never stop learning. Talk with your buddies about poker. Think
about poker. Read poker books. Play poker. Post on RGP or other
forums. Play other forms of poker (e.g. PLO, NLHE, PLHE, LO8, Stud8,
SnGs, MTTs).

10) Regularly perform a self-analysis. PokerTracker has been
invaluable in helping me find my leaks. By evaluating your online game
in this manner (and fixing the flaws), you will drastically improve
both your online and live play.

Being a winning player with a stable bankroll results in doing lots and
lots of little things right.

Hope this helps. I have lost my online bankroll three times so
far...each time it was due to a combination of #3, #4, #5, and #8. I
am a winning player (in terms of BB/hr)...but, poor bankroll management
skills and discipline can eat through the largest of bankrolls.

- Mark

[Chech Raisin]

Excellent post.

[Chech Raisin]

Excellent post.

[Bryan K]

Post by Overseer55
1) Don't play $2/4 or $3/6 live. The rake will kill you. B&M casinos
have a high overhead cost to overcome per table. Therefore, the first
practical level to start at is $5/10 or $6/12. You want a $1500-2000
bankroll before tackling those games. The players at $5/10 and $6/12
are only marginally better than the players at $2/4 and $3/6.

This is an otherwise excellent post, but I don't necessarily agree with this
paragraph. I do agree with your ascertations about the rake, but for most
poker players trying to start a bankroll, the $5/$10 game is just too
expensive. That's why I strongly recommend mastering the micro blinds
tables online before moving up in levels. I'll be honest when I say that
the rake is beating me when playing microlimit online (by about a 3 to 2
edge playing 50c/$1 and below...where the house is making 3 and I'm making
2). It's still profitable, though, and when trying to start out building a
bankroll, I think playing profitable poker is more important than anything
else.

I usually recommend that people start at the $3/$6 table when playing live,
but it really does depend on the rake. Most places I play cap the rake at
$3 with an extra $1 going to the bad beat tax if the pot gets larger than
$50. Losing $5 max per hand would be acceptable to me, but any more than
that simply makes the $3/$6 game unplayable. I've only played $2/$4 live
twice in my life, and they were both very, very juicy tables where it was
very easy to beat the rake.

Basically, though, I think the most important reason to start at the $3/$6
table is to just get used to betting that much money. It can be tough to
cap a bet on the river in a $3/$6 game when one is thinking that the $24 is
a half a tank of gas. It's even more difficult at the $5/$10 table, as $40
is still a lot of money to me anywhere except a poker table.

[b***@yahoo.com]

www.bonuswhores.com

[Bryan K]

Post by Kamekzwzrd
Recently I have decided to take poker on more seriously and want to build a
bankroll. What advice does anyone have from starting a bankroll from scratch?
Even after taking brutal beats, I do not get gunshy about playing. I work a
normal job and after all my bills are paid I have about $200 a month in spending
money. Would you suggest online or live play to build a bankroll? For the most
parts, I want to improve my cash/ring game ability and know that the only way to
do it is by a combination of reading up and playing more.
I want to start at the bottom: $2/$4 Live and any advice for that level, since
it is an extremely loose but profitable game under the right conditions.
My current ability, I'm mostly a marginal win player with an average of 1-1.5 BB
per hour per limit hold' em session (mostly $2/$4 Limit) but the wins are
skewed. One session, I could lose up to 15 BB and win 25 BB and I am
inconsistent with the wins. I want to be able to average it on a
consistent
basis. So far this month, I have had a losing streak (combination of lack of
focus and cold deck), and I feel that that average is slipping to near 1 small
bet an hour.
Another question I have is, when do you stop playing? I've always been
under
the impression that you stop when you are either: tired or starting to play
badly. Is there any other time that I should walk away from the table to avoid
going bust or breaking even? This is one lesson that I really need to get advice
on this subject because I can tell this is a crucial management skill to know.
I just need some advice on this and I am grateful to anyone who is willing to
offer any.
Paul
PS: My friend was curious to know what to do after you go broke. He recently
went broke online and wants to rebuild and what steps to take before rebuilding.

If you really want my opinion, start at the online microblinds table. They
are more difficult to beat than most B&M's. Play a 10c/20c game until you
get the 500BB's necessary to move up in levels. Some say you only need 300
BB's, but being a person who has also busted off a bankroll before, I stick
to the 500 BB's level pretty vehemently, and drop down if I get back to the
300 BB level. Also, I tend to increase levels cautiously. I like to get my
feet wet, drop back down for awhile, try again, drop back down, etc. I also
don't ever give up an any particular level. When I choose a table, I look
for the one that appears to be the most profitable. If I have a $6/$12
table full of rocks, a $5/$10 table with five very good players, and a $3/$6
table full of fish to choose from, I'll go play with the fish. It's not
about pride, it's about winning.

That being said, the most important part of my game is recognizing which
players who I think can outplay me. This is important in deciding when to
defend my blinds as well as deciding what table to play (and where to sit on
that table). Also, a very important aspect of playing is to adjust your
stakes based on the aggressiveness on the table. While my bankroll can
surely cover playing on an $8/$16 table, I don't want to sit and play at
those levels if there are two maniacs at the table. Give me those same
maniacs on a $5/$10 table, and I feel like I have an advantage. On the
$8/$16 table, a considerable amount of my bankroll can be eaten away simply
by 2-3 bad beats.

It's all about comfort, and if you ever feel like you are not playing
aggressive enough because you are afraid to lose, then you need to drop down
in levels.