Overpair vs. Top Pair

[Gentlefinger]

I play the $50 no-limit ring games, and one of the matchups that
consistently generate big pots are between top pairs and overpairs,
e.g. I have KK vs. AQ, with a flop of Q 5 2. Generally, somebody goes
all-in by the turn on these hands. I've been on both sides of this,
and I'm trying to figure out how to avoid losing a lot with top pair.

So, I played this hand last night: I get KJs in middle position. The
table's been folding to my raises, so I bet out 3x BB ($3) (loose, I
know, but I figured there was a decent chance I'd win the blinds right
there). Instead, a late position player raises it to $6. I think for
a while and call, thinking I have the worst of it now, but could
improve. Flop is J 9 3 rainbow. I check, hoping to snap off an
overcard bluff. He bets $10 into a $12 pot. I go all in for $30, and
he calls. He has AA.

How could I have played this differently?

1. Folded KJs in that position. Someone will probably say my problem
was playing this hand in the first place. Folding is probably best
play for this individual hand, but my table image was too tight, and I
hadn't been getting action on my genuinely good hands. Besides, a
similar situation would happen if I had AQs and flopped a pair of
Q's--you can't avoid this situation by only playing great hands.

2. Folded to a reraise preflop. Okay, so my steal attempt failed,
should I just lay down? The minimum reraise looks like either a value
bet with a monster like AA or a probe with something weaker. I'm
getting good odds to at least see a flop and try to make a flush or a
straight and double up.

3. Bet/fold the flop instead of check/raise. If I make a pot-sized
bet, he can't call with just two overcards. If he comes over the top,
I can put him on trips or an overpair. Problem is, by that point, I'd
almost have odds to call anyway. (risking $20 to win $56 as a 3:1
dog). If I'm at all unsure of my overcard read, I should definitely
call his raise.

The problem is, there are too many maniacs and idiots playing at these
limits to make definite reads. The preflop reraise could have meant
AA, or it could have been A9s. Postflop bet could have been anything
from overcards to middle pair to trips. Is there any way to avoid
this without playing way too tight in other situations?

[Drodrigo1]

I think the problem in the first place is: you made it 3BB to go preflop.
That is too loose, imagine: you called, the player (P) with AA would have
wanted to keep you in the hand, so he raised small, you call, on that small
raise you already had to be cautious.
When the flop came you had to bet out small, when he raised you you should
have made your final decision: Go all the way or fold. I would lean toward
folding.

by the way: KJ is too weak to play with, you were vulnerable to: A's and Q's

Good luck next time.

Post by Gentlefinger
I play the $50 no-limit ring games, and one of the matchups that
consistently generate big pots are between top pairs and overpairs,
e.g. I have KK vs. AQ, with a flop of Q 5 2. Generally, somebody goes
all-in by the turn on these hands. I've been on both sides of this,
and I'm trying to figure out how to avoid losing a lot with top pair.
So, I played this hand last night: I get KJs in middle position. The
table's been folding to my raises, so I bet out 3x BB ($3) (loose, I
know, but I figured there was a decent chance I'd win the blinds right
there). Instead, a late position player raises it to $6. I think for
a while and call, thinking I have the worst of it now, but could
improve. Flop is J 9 3 rainbow. I check, hoping to snap off an
overcard bluff. He bets $10 into a $12 pot. I go all in for $30, and
he calls. He has AA.
How could I have played this differently?
1. Folded KJs in that position. Someone will probably say my problem
was playing this hand in the first place. Folding is probably best
play for this individual hand, but my table image was too tight, and I
hadn't been getting action on my genuinely good hands. Besides, a
similar situation would happen if I had AQs and flopped a pair of
Q's--you can't avoid this situation by only playing great hands.
2. Folded to a reraise preflop. Okay, so my steal attempt failed,
should I just lay down? The minimum reraise looks like either a value
bet with a monster like AA or a probe with something weaker. I'm
getting good odds to at least see a flop and try to make a flush or a
straight and double up.
3. Bet/fold the flop instead of check/raise. If I make a pot-sized
bet, he can't call with just two overcards. If he comes over the top,
I can put him on trips or an overpair. Problem is, by that point, I'd
almost have odds to call anyway. (risking $20 to win $56 as a 3:1
dog). If I'm at all unsure of my overcard read, I should definitely
call his raise.
The problem is, there are too many maniacs and idiots playing at these
limits to make definite reads. The preflop reraise could have meant
AA, or it could have been A9s. Postflop bet could have been anything
from overcards to middle pair to trips. Is there any way to avoid
this without playing way too tight in other situations?

[American Idle]

Huh? 3BB is a standard raise and if u're the 1st one in after half the
tables has folded, it makes sense to raise.

And KJs is not a weak hand when no one else has entered or raised a pot.
It's probably even playable in a raised pot if u have position.

Post by Drodrigo1
I think the problem in the first place is: you made it 3BB to go preflop.
That is too loose, imagine: you called, the player (P) with AA would have
wanted to keep you in the hand, so he raised small, you call, on that small
raise you already had to be cautious.
When the flop came you had to bet out small, when he raised you you should
have made your final decision: Go all the way or fold. I would lean toward
folding.
by the way: KJ is too weak to play with, you were vulnerable to: A's and Q's
Good luck next time.

Post by Gentlefinger
I play the $50 no-limit ring games, and one of the matchups that
consistently generate big pots are between top pairs and overpairs,
e.g. I have KK vs. AQ, with a flop of Q 5 2. Generally, somebody goes
all-in by the turn on these hands. I've been on both sides of this,
and I'm trying to figure out how to avoid losing a lot with top pair.
So, I played this hand last night: I get KJs in middle position. The
table's been folding to my raises, so I bet out 3x BB ($3) (loose, I
know, but I figured there was a decent chance I'd win the blinds right
there). Instead, a late position player raises it to $6. I think for
a while and call, thinking I have the worst of it now, but could
improve. Flop is J 9 3 rainbow. I check, hoping to snap off an
overcard bluff. He bets $10 into a $12 pot. I go all in for $30, and
he calls. He has AA.
How could I have played this differently?
1. Folded KJs in that position. Someone will probably say my problem
was playing this hand in the first place. Folding is probably best
play for this individual hand, but my table image was too tight, and I
hadn't been getting action on my genuinely good hands. Besides, a
similar situation would happen if I had AQs and flopped a pair of
Q's--you can't avoid this situation by only playing great hands.
2. Folded to a reraise preflop. Okay, so my steal attempt failed,
should I just lay down? The minimum reraise looks like either a value
bet with a monster like AA or a probe with something weaker. I'm
getting good odds to at least see a flop and try to make a flush or a
straight and double up.
3. Bet/fold the flop instead of check/raise. If I make a pot-sized
bet, he can't call with just two overcards. If he comes over the top,
I can put him on trips or an overpair. Problem is, by that point, I'd
almost have odds to call anyway. (risking $20 to win $56 as a 3:1
dog). If I'm at all unsure of my overcard read, I should definitely
call his raise.
The problem is, there are too many maniacs and idiots playing at these
limits to make definite reads. The preflop reraise could have meant
AA, or it could have been A9s. Postflop bet could have been anything
from overcards to middle pair to trips. Is there any way to avoid
this without playing way too tight in other situations?

_________________________________________________________________
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[Joseph Ward]

his minimum raise usually means he has either KK or AA...with that flop i
would have bet half the pot...if he raises any amount im done with the
hand...if he flat calls...i will check and fold to a significant bet on
the turn...no reason to go all in and hope you have the best hand.

_________________________________________________________________
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[AceMan]

If the table was folding to your raises and you were raising more than the
average, then I am willing to bet this guy was waiting to pick you off.
The reraise should have sent alarm bells going off in your head. I don't
understand how there can be a lot of maniacs at the table if the table is
folding to your pre-flop raises. At the crazy tables I see, a pre-flop
raise means nothing, but your table was actually folding to them. You got
caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

_________________________________________________________________
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[jbsc7769]

Ok, i am fairly new to the game, about 6 months, but i am very interested
in your comment about "getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar"
for betting top pair? I know this is the debate but, if yo ucant bet top
pair, what can you bet?

Post by AceMan
If the table was folding to your raises and you were raising more than the
average, then I am willing to bet this guy was waiting to pick you off.
The reraise should have sent alarm bells going off in your head. I don't
understand how there can be a lot of maniacs at the table if the table is
folding to your pre-flop raises. At the crazy tables I see, a pre-flop
raise means nothing, but your table was actually folding to them. You got
caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

_________________________________________________________________
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[AceMan]

Everything is situational. He overplayed a weak hand preflop and
overplayed top pair 2nd kicker. That is what I meant. Nothing wrong with
betting top pair, but you have to know when to lay it down too. Also, he
didn't bet top pair, he check-raised all-in giving himself no chance to
get away.

Post by jbsc7769
Ok, i am fairly new to the game, about 6 months, but i am very interested
in your comment about "getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar"
for betting top pair? I know this is the debate but, if yo ucant bet top
pair, what can you bet?

Post by AceMan
If the table was folding to your raises and you were raising more than the
average, then I am willing to bet this guy was waiting to pick you off.
The reraise should have sent alarm bells going off in your head. I don't
understand how there can be a lot of maniacs at the table if the table is
folding to your pre-flop raises. At the crazy tables I see, a pre-flop
raise means nothing, but your table was actually folding to them. You got
caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

_________________________________________________________________
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[GrouchySmurf1002]

Haven't read responses (if there were any yet), but he didn't bet top pair.
He check-raised it all-in. There is a big difference between the two.

Post by jbsc7769
Ok, i am fairly new to the game, about 6 months, but i am very interested
in your comment about "getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar"
for betting top pair? I know this is the debate but, if yo ucant bet top
pair, what can you bet?

Post by AceMan
If the table was folding to your raises and you were raising more than the
average, then I am willing to bet this guy was waiting to pick you off.
The reraise should have sent alarm bells going off in your head. I don't
understand how there can be a lot of maniacs at the table if the table is
folding to your pre-flop raises. At the crazy tables I see, a pre-flop
raise means nothing, but your table was actually folding to them. You got
caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

_________________________________________________________________
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[Dennis Altman]

Pot was incremented to 6x BB preflop. He has 3 bets to make being out
of position. You will get yourself slaughtered in NL play with this
type of hand. In limit, the worst case is you loose a couple of big
bets if you are wrong, this is the type of hand you will loose your
whole stack to if your read is incorrect.

Post by jbsc7769
Ok, i am fairly new to the game, about 6 months, but i am very interested
in your comment about "getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar"
for betting top pair? I know this is the debate but, if yo ucant bet top
pair, what can you bet?

Post by AceMan
If the table was folding to your raises and you were raising more than the
average, then I am willing to bet this guy was waiting to pick you off.
The reraise should have sent alarm bells going off in your head. I don't
understand how there can be a lot of maniacs at the table if the table is
folding to your pre-flop raises. At the crazy tables I see, a pre-flop
raise means nothing, but your table was actually folding to them. You got
caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

_________________________________________________________________
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[Johnny Diamond]

Totally agree - one of easiest ways to win big pot in NL games - just have
to wait to catch the bully - AA did just that, even tho you had top pair
on board

Post by AceMan
If the table was folding to your raises and you were raising more than the
average, then I am willing to bet this guy was waiting to pick you off.
The reraise should have sent alarm bells going off in your head. I don't
understand how there can be a lot of maniacs at the table if the table is
folding to your pre-flop raises. At the crazy tables I see, a pre-flop
raise means nothing, but your table was actually folding to them. You got
caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

_________________________________________________________________
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[GrouchySmurf1002]

Post by Gentlefinger
I play the $50 no-limit ring games, and one of the matchups that
consistently generate big pots are between top pairs and overpairs,
e.g. I have KK vs. AQ, with a flop of Q 5 2. Generally, somebody goes
all-in by the turn on these hands. I've been on both sides of this,
and I'm trying to figure out how to avoid losing a lot with top pair.
So, I played this hand last night: I get KJs in middle position. The
table's been folding to my raises, so I bet out 3x BB ($3) (loose, I
know, but I figured there was a decent chance I'd win the blinds right
there). Instead, a late position player raises it to $6. I think for
a while and call, thinking I have the worst of it now, but could
improve. Flop is J 9 3 rainbow. I check, hoping to snap off an
overcard bluff. He bets $10 into a $12 pot. I go all in for $30, and
he calls. He has AA.
How could I have played this differently?

1. Make quicker decisions. You'd be surprised how few people online pay
attention to how long it takes someone to make a decision. Once you
hesitated pre-flop, he's going to know you're weak. A corollary to that is
once you hesitate, if you fold it will appear as you made a big laydown,
which is also not to your benefit. This is why occassionally you should
delay with an easy call/raise, mainly to induce calls. (and raises if
you're lucky).

2. I have no problem with calling the $3 re-raise, but what you're looking
for is a big hand/big draw, and not necessarily top pair when you call.
The min-raise could be exploratory (w/ smaller, dominating hands like AJ,
KQ, or JJ) and could also be pot builders (with AA-QQ, AK), in which case
catching just a pair is only going to get you in trouble. Which of course
leads to.....

3. Folding to the $3 re-raise saves you a lot of hassle. I dunno about you,
but I don't like to be throwing money around in the dark if I really don't
have to.

4. Since you did call, J93 is an ok flop for your hand, but you are
vulnerable. You need to bet out here, roughly $8-10. Since you only had
$30 left, this bet should only be raised by someone who can beat top pair.
Reason being that he can't risk making a bluff raise here that would be very
easy for you to call if you're strong. By check raising here, you never
really got any information about his hand. Yes he re-raised preflop, but
most half-way decent players will bet out on the flop regardless of their
holding here, assuming you checked 1st.

[American Idle]

Overall good advice, but since many people play multiple tables online, i
don't think that hesitating is that big of a factor. You are right though
that he should think faster...he should have had a plan for what he would
do if reraised before he even raised with the hand.

Post by GrouchySmurf1002

Post by Gentlefinger
I play the $50 no-limit ring games, and one of the matchups that
consistently generate big pots are between top pairs and overpairs,
e.g. I have KK vs. AQ, with a flop of Q 5 2. Generally, somebody goes
all-in by the turn on these hands. I've been on both sides of this,
and I'm trying to figure out how to avoid losing a lot with top pair.
So, I played this hand last night: I get KJs in middle position. The
table's been folding to my raises, so I bet out 3x BB ($3) (loose, I
know, but I figured there was a decent chance I'd win the blinds right
there). Instead, a late position player raises it to $6. I think for
a while and call, thinking I have the worst of it now, but could
improve. Flop is J 9 3 rainbow. I check, hoping to snap off an
overcard bluff. He bets $10 into a $12 pot. I go all in for $30, and
he calls. He has AA.
How could I have played this differently?

1. Make quicker decisions. You'd be surprised how few people online pay
attention to how long it takes someone to make a decision. Once you
hesitated pre-flop, he's going to know you're weak. A corollary to that is
once you hesitate, if you fold it will appear as you made a big laydown,
which is also not to your benefit. This is why occassionally you should
delay with an easy call/raise, mainly to induce calls. (and raises if
you're lucky).
2. I have no problem with calling the $3 re-raise, but what you're looking
for is a big hand/big draw, and not necessarily top pair when you call.
The min-raise could be exploratory (w/ smaller, dominating hands like AJ,
KQ, or JJ) and could also be pot builders (with AA-QQ, AK), in which case
catching just a pair is only going to get you in trouble. Which of course
leads to.....
3. Folding to the $3 re-raise saves you a lot of hassle. I dunno about you,
but I don't like to be throwing money around in the dark if I really don't
have to.
4. Since you did call, J93 is an ok flop for your hand, but you are
vulnerable. You need to bet out here, roughly $8-10. Since you only had
$30 left, this bet should only be raised by someone who can beat top pair.
Reason being that he can't risk making a bluff raise here that would be very
easy for you to call if you're strong. By check raising here, you never
really got any information about his hand. Yes he re-raised preflop, but
most half-way decent players will bet out on the flop regardless of their
holding here, assuming you checked 1st.

_________________________________________________________________
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[GrouchySmurf1002]

Well, simplifying that whole thing, as long as you're consistent one way or
another you're ok. But if you play your big hands quickly and are
constantly hesitating in marginal situations, it's a big give away
regardless of how many tables you're at.

I should also note that people that play multiple tables are more prone to
give away this tell, because they're bouncing around from table to table,
and often have very good hands when they suddenly start playing quickly.

Post by American Idle
Overall good advice, but since many people play multiple tables online, i
don't think that hesitating is that big of a factor. You are right though
that he should think faster...he should have had a plan for what he would
do if reraised before he even raised with the hand.

Post by GrouchySmurf1002

Post by Gentlefinger
I play the $50 no-limit ring games, and one of the matchups that
consistently generate big pots are between top pairs and overpairs,
e.g. I have KK vs. AQ, with a flop of Q 5 2. Generally, somebody goes
all-in by the turn on these hands. I've been on both sides of this,
and I'm trying to figure out how to avoid losing a lot with top pair.
So, I played this hand last night: I get KJs in middle position. The
table's been folding to my raises, so I bet out 3x BB ($3) (loose, I
know, but I figured there was a decent chance I'd win the blinds right
there). Instead, a late position player raises it to $6. I think for
a while and call, thinking I have the worst of it now, but could
improve. Flop is J 9 3 rainbow. I check, hoping to snap off an
overcard bluff. He bets $10 into a $12 pot. I go all in for $30, and
he calls. He has AA.
How could I have played this differently?

1. Make quicker decisions. You'd be surprised how few people online pay
attention to how long it takes someone to make a decision. Once you
hesitated pre-flop, he's going to know you're weak. A corollary to that is
once you hesitate, if you fold it will appear as you made a big laydown,
which is also not to your benefit. This is why occassionally you should
delay with an easy call/raise, mainly to induce calls. (and raises if
you're lucky).
2. I have no problem with calling the $3 re-raise, but what you're looking
for is a big hand/big draw, and not necessarily top pair when you call.
The min-raise could be exploratory (w/ smaller, dominating hands like AJ,
KQ, or JJ) and could also be pot builders (with AA-QQ, AK), in which case
catching just a pair is only going to get you in trouble. Which of course
leads to.....
3. Folding to the $3 re-raise saves you a lot of hassle. I dunno about you,
but I don't like to be throwing money around in the dark if I really don't
have to.
4. Since you did call, J93 is an ok flop for your hand, but you are
vulnerable. You need to bet out here, roughly $8-10. Since you only had
$30 left, this bet should only be raised by someone who can beat top pair.
Reason being that he can't risk making a bluff raise here that would be very
easy for you to call if you're strong. By check raising here, you never
really got any information about his hand. Yes he re-raised preflop, but
most half-way decent players will bet out on the flop regardless of their
holding here, assuming you checked 1st.

_________________________________________________________________
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[Michael Kotowski]

Post by Gentlefinger
I play the $50 no-limit ring games, and one of the matchups that
consistently generate big pots are between top pairs and overpairs,
e.g. I have KK vs. AQ, with a flop of Q 5 2. Generally, somebody goes
all-in by the turn on these hands. I've been on both sides of this,
and I'm trying to figure out how to avoid losing a lot with top pair.
So, I played this hand last night: I get KJs in middle position. The
table's been folding to my raises, so I bet out 3x BB ($3) (loose, I
know, but I figured there was a decent chance I'd win the blinds right
there). Instead, a late position player raises it to $6. I think for
a while and call, thinking I have the worst of it now, but could
improve. Flop is J 9 3 rainbow. I check, hoping to snap off an
overcard bluff. He bets $10 into a $12 pot. I go all in for $30, and
he calls. He has AA.
How could I have played this differently?
1. Folded KJs in that position. Someone will probably say my problem
was playing this hand in the first place. Folding is probably best
play for this individual hand, but my table image was too tight, and I
hadn't been getting action on my genuinely good hands. Besides, a
similar situation would happen if I had AQs and flopped a pair of
Q's--you can't avoid this situation by only playing great hands.

This depends a lot on the table dynamic I think. If you see a lot of
people playing hands worse than KJs, it's not terrible to play it. Also,
if the table is super-tight, you can definitely make plays with this type
of hand in my opinion.

Post by Gentlefinger
2. Folded to a reraise preflop. Okay, so my steal attempt failed,
should I just lay down? The minimum reraise looks like either a value
bet with a monster like AA or a probe with something weaker. I'm
getting good odds to at least see a flop and try to make a flush or a
straight and double up.

Based on my response above, this is where you need to be very careful. If
you're reraised, I would seriously consider a laydown. Personally
however, I usually won't lay a hand down for a minimum raise, I'll at
least take a flop, but again, proceed with caution. The problem with
calling here is that you have no idea what you want on the flop. If you
hit a K, you obviously have to worry about AK. If you hit a J, you can't
know that the opponent doesn't have an overpair.

Post by Gentlefinger
3. Bet/fold the flop instead of check/raise. If I make a pot-sized
bet, he can't call with just two overcards. If he comes over the top,
I can put him on trips or an overpair. Problem is, by that point, I'd
almost have odds to call anyway. (risking $20 to win $56 as a 3:1
dog). If I'm at all unsure of my overcard read, I should definitely
call his raise.

I would definitely NOT checkraise with this kind of hand. I think a bet
is the right way to go here if you plan to continue with the hand. If
you're raised, I think you can lay the hand down without too much thought.
In this situation, he re-raised pre-flop, so if he raises your flop bet,
he's got to have AK or an over-pair. I think you'll lose much less money
folding here over the long haul that you will make by calling or
check-raising.

Post by Gentlefinger
The problem is, there are too many maniacs and idiots playing at these
limits to make definite reads. The preflop reraise could have meant
AA, or it could have been A9s. Postflop bet could have been anything
from overcards to middle pair to trips. Is there any way to avoid
this without playing way too tight in other situations?

_________________________________________________________________
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[Demonic]

it seems everyone would have laid this down. perhaps that's because they
know exactly what the other player had. If I had decided to make the
preflop raise (probably not) I likely have followed through in the same
way you had, especially with no read on the player. I definitely would
have done it holding AQ with Q-x-x rainbow board to the exact betting
pattern, and i bet everyone else would have too. It's easier to say
"alarm bells ringing off in your head" after you know the opponents hand.


-Demonic

Post by Gentlefinger
I play the $50 no-limit ring games, and one of the matchups that
consistently generate big pots are between top pairs and overpairs,
e.g. I have KK vs. AQ, with a flop of Q 5 2. Generally, somebody goes
all-in by the turn on these hands. I've been on both sides of this,
and I'm trying to figure out how to avoid losing a lot with top pair.
So, I played this hand last night: I get KJs in middle position. The
table's been folding to my raises, so I bet out 3x BB ($3) (loose, I
know, but I figured there was a decent chance I'd win the blinds right
there). Instead, a late position player raises it to $6. I think for
a while and call, thinking I have the worst of it now, but could
improve. Flop is J 9 3 rainbow. I check, hoping to snap off an
overcard bluff. He bets $10 into a $12 pot. I go all in for $30, and
he calls. He has AA.
How could I have played this differently?
1. Folded KJs in that position. Someone will probably say my problem
was playing this hand in the first place. Folding is probably best
play for this individual hand, but my table image was too tight, and I
hadn't been getting action on my genuinely good hands. Besides, a
similar situation would happen if I had AQs and flopped a pair of
Q's--you can't avoid this situation by only playing great hands.
2. Folded to a reraise preflop. Okay, so my steal attempt failed,
should I just lay down? The minimum reraise looks like either a value
bet with a monster like AA or a probe with something weaker. I'm
getting good odds to at least see a flop and try to make a flush or a
straight and double up.
3. Bet/fold the flop instead of check/raise. If I make a pot-sized
bet, he can't call with just two overcards. If he comes over the top,
I can put him on trips or an overpair. Problem is, by that point, I'd
almost have odds to call anyway. (risking $20 to win $56 as a 3:1
dog). If I'm at all unsure of my overcard read, I should definitely
call his raise.
The problem is, there are too many maniacs and idiots playing at these
limits to make definite reads. The preflop reraise could have meant
AA, or it could have been A9s. Postflop bet could have been anything
from overcards to middle pair to trips. Is there any way to avoid
this without playing way too tight in other situations?

_________________________________________________________________
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[Joseph Ward]

It's easier to say

Post by Demonic
"alarm bells ringing off in your head" after you know the opponents hand.

ahmm...it is very easy...that is why you bet out...to see where you are
at...believe it or not..some people do have the ability to lay down top
pair...maybe for you that is some sort of crazy laydown...but im sure its
not for most of the people on this site.

_________________________________________________________________
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[Adam B]

Hmm... to add my 2 cents, my major problem is with the check raise, the
rest of the hand, whether you should have raised is not my main concern.
If you limped then called a small raise you find yourself in the same
situation.

The problem with the check raise all in is that you are risking your
entire stack to trap him for 10 more dollars on the flop. In my opinion
the problem when you make a move like this, is that you're only called
when you're beat. If the reraiser had AJ, AA, KK, QQ, or a set he calls
and you probably lose. This play only gets him to lay down 2 overcardsin
which case you win his flop bet + pot, but a flop bet into him probably
does the same thing, sends the same message, but without risking your
entire stack.

If you want to continue the hand my move would have been to bet out the
flop and take it from there, which is still tough, especially out of
position.
Some situations are easier to figure out, but top pair VS overpair is
always one of the tougher ones, but that's NL, good luck.
Adam

Post by Demonic
it seems everyone would have laid this down. perhaps that's because they
know exactly what the other player had. If I had decided to make the
preflop raise (probably not) I likely have followed through in the same
way you had, especially with no read on the player. I definitely would
have done it holding AQ with Q-x-x rainbow board to the exact betting
pattern, and i bet everyone else would have too. It's easier to say
"alarm bells ringing off in your head" after you know the opponents hand.
-Demonic

Post by Gentlefinger
I play the $50 no-limit ring games, and one of the matchups that
consistently generate big pots are between top pairs and overpairs,
e.g. I have KK vs. AQ, with a flop of Q 5 2. Generally, somebody goes
all-in by the turn on these hands. I've been on both sides of this,
and I'm trying to figure out how to avoid losing a lot with top pair.
So, I played this hand last night: I get KJs in middle position. The
table's been folding to my raises, so I bet out 3x BB ($3) (loose, I
know, but I figured there was a decent chance I'd win the blinds right
there). Instead, a late position player raises it to $6. I think for
a while and call, thinking I have the worst of it now, but could
improve. Flop is J 9 3 rainbow. I check, hoping to snap off an
overcard bluff. He bets $10 into a $12 pot. I go all in for $30, and
he calls. He has AA.
How could I have played this differently?
1. Folded KJs in that position. Someone will probably say my problem
was playing this hand in the first place. Folding is probably best
play for this individual hand, but my table image was too tight, and I
hadn't been getting action on my genuinely good hands. Besides, a
similar situation would happen if I had AQs and flopped a pair of
Q's--you can't avoid this situation by only playing great hands.
2. Folded to a reraise preflop. Okay, so my steal attempt failed,
should I just lay down? The minimum reraise looks like either a value
bet with a monster like AA or a probe with something weaker. I'm
getting good odds to at least see a flop and try to make a flush or a
straight and double up.
3. Bet/fold the flop instead of check/raise. If I make a pot-sized
bet, he can't call with just two overcards. If he comes over the top,
I can put him on trips or an overpair. Problem is, by that point, I'd
almost have odds to call anyway. (risking $20 to win $56 as a 3:1
dog). If I'm at all unsure of my overcard read, I should definitely
call his raise.
The problem is, there are too many maniacs and idiots playing at these
limits to make definite reads. The preflop reraise could have meant
AA, or it could have been A9s. Postflop bet could have been anything
from overcards to middle pair to trips. Is there any way to avoid
this without playing way too tight in other situations?

_________________________________________________________________
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[GrouchySmurf1002]

Actually, my analysis was lay it down here before you ever see the board.
Or to bet and be careful on the flop.
I would also say to play AQ on a Qxx board the exact same way, though with
AQ you have a few less hands to worry about (JJ, AJ are no longer a problem)
to worry about, and thus it has more value.

If you're going to play it, you want to flop a big hand, not top pair. Bet,
but fold if you're re-raised. The key here is the fact he's somewhat
short-stacked. If he had $120 instead of $30, and he decided to
check-raise, he has wiggle room. The way he did it, he's blindly raising
all-in with what may or may not be the best hand, and that's just silly.

Post by Demonic
it seems everyone would have laid this down. perhaps that's because they
know exactly what the other player had. If I had decided to make the
preflop raise (probably not) I likely have followed through in the same
way you had, especially with no read on the player. I definitely would
have done it holding AQ with Q-x-x rainbow board to the exact betting
pattern, and i bet everyone else would have too. It's easier to say
"alarm bells ringing off in your head" after you know the opponents hand.
-Demonic

Post by Gentlefinger
I play the $50 no-limit ring games, and one of the matchups that
consistently generate big pots are between top pairs and overpairs,
e.g. I have KK vs. AQ, with a flop of Q 5 2. Generally, somebody goes
all-in by the turn on these hands. I've been on both sides of this,
and I'm trying to figure out how to avoid losing a lot with top pair.
So, I played this hand last night: I get KJs in middle position. The
table's been folding to my raises, so I bet out 3x BB ($3) (loose, I
know, but I figured there was a decent chance I'd win the blinds right
there). Instead, a late position player raises it to $6. I think for
a while and call, thinking I have the worst of it now, but could
improve. Flop is J 9 3 rainbow. I check, hoping to snap off an
overcard bluff. He bets $10 into a $12 pot. I go all in for $30, and
he calls. He has AA.
How could I have played this differently?
1. Folded KJs in that position. Someone will probably say my problem
was playing this hand in the first place. Folding is probably best
play for this individual hand, but my table image was too tight, and I
hadn't been getting action on my genuinely good hands. Besides, a
similar situation would happen if I had AQs and flopped a pair of
Q's--you can't avoid this situation by only playing great hands.
2. Folded to a reraise preflop. Okay, so my steal attempt failed,
should I just lay down? The minimum reraise looks like either a value
bet with a monster like AA or a probe with something weaker. I'm
getting good odds to at least see a flop and try to make a flush or a
straight and double up.
3. Bet/fold the flop instead of check/raise. If I make a pot-sized
bet, he can't call with just two overcards. If he comes over the top,
I can put him on trips or an overpair. Problem is, by that point, I'd
almost have odds to call anyway. (risking $20 to win $56 as a 3:1
dog). If I'm at all unsure of my overcard read, I should definitely
call his raise.
The problem is, there are too many maniacs and idiots playing at these
limits to make definite reads. The preflop reraise could have meant
AA, or it could have been A9s. Postflop bet could have been anything
from overcards to middle pair to trips. Is there any way to avoid
this without playing way too tight in other situations?

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com

[Dennis Altman]

Mistakes, very dangerious playing kjs in middle position for a raise.
I think a limp is much better in this position. Since you are going to
have up to 4 decisions on this hand, its important to keep betting
levels down. A pot sized bet on an unraised pot after the flop is much
better for this kind of hand. By raising you are making it 3xs as much
with a multitutde of hands that are going to call you.

Once you hit the flop you only have top pair good kicker. In my opinion
this is not a hand to die on. My guess is if you made a 1/2 pot sized
bet he raises minimum again and you will be drawing at 5 outs. If you
had the button on this hand, you have at least one less decision to make
and makes the difference in playing this type of hand. Top pair good
kicker is only going to make you a small sized pot in NL, never a huge pot.

Post by Gentlefinger
I play the $50 no-limit ring games, and one of the matchups that
consistently generate big pots are between top pairs and overpairs,
e.g. I have KK vs. AQ, with a flop of Q 5 2. Generally, somebody goes
all-in by the turn on these hands. I've been on both sides of this,
and I'm trying to figure out how to avoid losing a lot with top pair.
So, I played this hand last night: I get KJs in middle position. The
table's been folding to my raises, so I bet out 3x BB ($3) (loose, I
know, but I figured there was a decent chance I'd win the blinds right
there). Instead, a late position player raises it to $6. I think for
a while and call, thinking I have the worst of it now, but could
improve. Flop is J 9 3 rainbow. I check, hoping to snap off an
overcard bluff. He bets $10 into a $12 pot. I go all in for $30, and
he calls. He has AA.
How could I have played this differently?
1. Folded KJs in that position. Someone will probably say my problem
was playing this hand in the first place. Folding is probably best
play for this individual hand, but my table image was too tight, and I
hadn't been getting action on my genuinely good hands. Besides, a
similar situation would happen if I had AQs and flopped a pair of
Q's--you can't avoid this situation by only playing great hands.
2. Folded to a reraise preflop. Okay, so my steal attempt failed,
should I just lay down? The minimum reraise looks like either a value
bet with a monster like AA or a probe with something weaker. I'm
getting good odds to at least see a flop and try to make a flush or a
straight and double up.
3. Bet/fold the flop instead of check/raise. If I make a pot-sized
bet, he can't call with just two overcards. If he comes over the top,
I can put him on trips or an overpair. Problem is, by that point, I'd
almost have odds to call anyway. (risking $20 to win $56 as a 3:1
dog). If I'm at all unsure of my overcard read, I should definitely
call his raise.
The problem is, there are too many maniacs and idiots playing at these
limits to make definite reads. The preflop reraise could have meant
AA, or it could have been A9s. Postflop bet could have been anything
from overcards to middle pair to trips. Is there any way to avoid
this without playing way too tight in other situations?

[Gentlefinger]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I think you're right that someone
was waiting to pick me off--the minimum reraise definitely should have
made me worry more about an overpair.

Given my preflop raise and call, the proper play on the flop would
have been to not overvalue top pair second kicker. I don't think it
was a mistake to call the reraise, necessarily, as long as I limited
my further play for situations where the flop gave me two pair or a
strong draw. Or cautiously playing a pair. As opposed to, "I have
top pair! Nothing beats top pair!"

A lot of people took issue with my all-in check-raise. The consensus
for better play would have been bet/fold. Since the other guy
reraised preflop, I can be pretty sure he'll bet after the flop
regardless of what he's got. His likely hands include: AK, AQ, AJ,
AA, KK, QQ, TT(?), KQ (reraises with KQo are not all that uncommon).
So there's maybe a 30-40% chance he's betting with overcards, and a
60-70% chance he's got me dominated. During the hand I didn't
consider overcards as much, and put it at 50-50.

So: assuming a $10 pot, bet/fold makes me $10 35% of the time (he
folds), and loses me $10 65% of the time (he raises), EV = -$3.

Check/raise gives me $20 35% of the time (he folds to the reraise),
loses me $30 50% of the time (he calls and wins), and wins me $40 15%
of the time (he calls and I suck out), EV = -2.

Could it be that I should check/fold or check/call here? Obviously
these calculations are very dependent on what you think his cards
could be, and assume he'll never call if he doesn't have me beat. If
any bet is -EV here, though, I probably should have folded to the
reraise preflop.

If you assume he's 50/50 to beat me, bet/fold is EV = 0, and
check/raise is EV = +3.75.

Don't know how much to credit my assumptions, but this would suggest
that at a loose table, the check/raise is not as bad as people are
thinking.

My meta-strategy worked out, though. This hand convinced the table I
was a moron. I lucked out on this hand and got a king on the turn to
make 2 pair and win the pot. Five hands later I got KK, raised 5x BB,
and got 3 callers who probably thought I was a total jackass. Of
course, an ace flopped and I folded to a raise, but still...