Discussion:
AJ suited vs AQ offsuite ?
(too old to reply)
Boston Green
2005-04-28 22:50:42 UTC
Permalink
Whats the odds/percentages PRE-FLOP ??

(Reason being I called an all in with AJ suited, oppenent turned AQ off and
started bitching, then bitched even more when he lost, saying he was HUGE
favourite before the flop, 3/1 or something)
--
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OrlandoCuse
2005-04-28 22:56:31 UTC
Permalink
He was 70% preflop, "huge" would be 85%+ IMO
Post by Boston Green
Whats the odds/percentages PRE-FLOP ??
(Reason being I called an all in with AJ suited, oppenent turned AQ off and
started bitching, then bitched even more when he lost, saying he was HUGE
favourite before the flop, 3/1 or something)
--
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Quest4urCash
2005-04-28 22:57:00 UTC
Permalink
Go to www.pokertips.org they have a good hand simulator.
Post by Boston Green
Whats the odds/percentages PRE-FLOP ??
(Reason being I called an all in with AJ suited, oppenent turned AQ off and
started bitching, then bitched even more when he lost, saying he was HUGE
favourite before the flop, 3/1 or something)
--
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Forums, Downloads, TV, Radio, Newsfeeds, On-Line Shop, Home Games
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Oliver Tse
2005-04-28 22:58:37 UTC
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AQ offsuit is about a 70-30 favorite against AJ suited.  Not quite 3-1.

AQ suited is about a 3-1 favorite against AJ offsuit.

The swing between suited and offsuit is about 2-3% each way.
Post by Boston Green
Whats the odds/percentages PRE-FLOP ??
(Reason being I called an all in with AJ suited, oppenent turned AQ off and
started bitching, then bitched even more when he lost, saying he was HUGE
favourite before the flop, 3/1 or something)
--
http://www.ukteampoker.com/ - The home of the UK Poker Community
Forums, Downloads, TV, Radio, Newsfeeds, On-Line Shop, Home Games
_______________________________________________________________
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C The Shocker
2005-04-28 23:21:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boston Green
Whats the odds/percentages PRE-FLOP ??
(Reason being I called an all in with AJ suited, oppenent turned AQ off and
started bitching, then bitched even more when he lost, saying he was HUGE
favourite before the flop, 3/1 or something)
Fucking pissy losers. Why didn't he show you his hand before you called him,
so that you knew your odds? I swear to God, some people think they have so
many skills, yet it's still down to the luck of the cards. Bet or Fold, but
don't bitch because you lost on the board.
--
C The Shocker
Never trust a big butt and a smile!
Prowler
2005-04-28 23:29:14 UTC
Permalink
LOL

Amen.
Post by C The Shocker
Fucking pissy losers. Why didn't he show you his hand before you called him,
so that you knew your odds? I swear to God, some people think they have so
many skills, yet it's still down to the luck of the cards. Bet or Fold, but
don't bitch because you lost on the board.
--
C The Shocker
Never trust a big butt and a smile!
_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
Boston Green
2005-04-29 09:06:16 UTC
Permalink
Exactly my thoughts, which is why I posted.

I thought it was a pretty good call, one that i'd make over and over again.
Even if i'd known I was up against AQ off I would still call it, just as
quickly. The number of times i've taken people out of MTT's with a Ace rag
flush draw.

I've only been playing since xmas past (christ, I sound like a ghost) and
often get bitched at calling big bets with A rag suited, but it seems a
profitable call, so i'm quite surprised to see the hand as a 2-1 underdog
(or therabouts).

Thanks to everyone for their responces.
Post by C The Shocker
Fucking pissy losers. Why didn't he show you his hand before you called him,
so that you knew your odds? I swear to God, some people think they have so
many skills, yet it's still down to the luck of the cards. Bet or Fold, but
don't bitch because you lost on the board.
--
C The Shocker
Never trust a big butt and a smile!
Sir Benjamin Nunn
2005-04-29 09:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boston Green
I thought it was a pretty good call, one that i'd make over and over again.
Even if i'd known I was up against AQ off I would still call it, just as
quickly.
You are one great player.

BTN
w***@yahoo.com
2005-04-29 10:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boston Green
Exactly my thoughts, which is why I posted.
I thought it was a pretty good call, one that i'd make over and over again.
Even if i'd known I was up against AQ off I would still call it, just as
quickly. The number of times i've taken people out of MTT's with a Ace rag
flush draw.
I've only been playing since xmas past (christ, I sound like a ghost) and
often get bitched at calling big bets with A rag suited, but it seems a
profitable call, so i'm quite surprised to see the hand as a 2-1 underdog
(or therabouts).
Thanks to everyone for their responces.
It's closer to a 3-1 'dog. Your call was about as bad as your
opponent's silly bitching. What got me was that he started complaining
BEFORE he lost. Most people would be de-LIGHTED if you called with AJs
when they put you all-in with AQo.

You're on the wrong side, but reasonable, of a race against any pair
below JJ. You are sucking hind tit against JJ, QQ, KK and even worse
against AA. You are dominated by AK or AQ. You have to hope that he has
AJo or AT for you to be a favorite.

If it has worked for you so far, you have been the beneficiary of too
small a sample size, ie lucky. Long-term AJs against someone who seems
to have a hand will cost you chips and tournaments and money.

If you think that your opponent is stealing, AJs becomes much more
viable, especially if you can raise. If YOU are stealing AJs is a
worthwhile hand because you have SOMETHING if you get called.

The other day a player thought I was stealing in a tournament and
re-raised me all-in (he was all-in but I was nearly all-in) with AJs. I
had AA. I did not think his actions were wrong because I DO steal a lot
and both of us were short-stacked enough that we needed chips. He was
somewhat unlucky that I had a real hand and he was unhappy when I
called, knowing that AJs is not a real hand. He was happier when the
board came J8J53 and perhaps celebrated a tad too much. However, I was
not unhappy that he called and, frankly, I don't expect to win every
time I am ahead.

Will in New Haven

--

"Hunting is hunting and mating is mating; The prey HAS no gender."
Feather from Poker for Cats
Post by Boston Green
Post by C The Shocker
Fucking pissy losers. Why didn't he show you his hand before you
called
Post by Boston Green
him,
Post by C The Shocker
so that you knew your odds? I swear to God, some people think they have so
many skills, yet it's still down to the luck of the cards. Bet or
Fold,
Post by Boston Green
but
Post by C The Shocker
don't bitch because you lost on the board.
--
C The Shocker
Never trust a big butt and a smile!
Boston Green
2005-04-29 11:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@yahoo.com
You're on the wrong side, but reasonable, of a race against any pair
below JJ. You are sucking hind tit against JJ, QQ, KK and even worse
against AA. You are dominated by AK or AQ. You have to hope that he has
AJo or AT for you to be a favorite.
Oh, I never thought my hand was favourite, was just surprised to find it
such a dog when it seems to come up trumps so often.
Post by w***@yahoo.com
If it has worked for you so far, you have been the beneficiary of too
small a sample size, ie lucky. Long-term AJs against someone who seems
to have a hand will cost you chips and tournaments and money.
I have hardly any 'live' experience, so possibly the way on-line poker seems
to either a) favour the dog in an all-in or b) flushes are so common
on-line, might be affecting the situation.
Post by w***@yahoo.com
If you think that your opponent is stealing, AJs becomes much more
viable, especially if you can raise. If YOU are stealing AJs is a
worthwhile hand because you have SOMETHING if you get called.
I didnt exactly think they were stealing, but they were down to I think
about 550 chips, and were the small stack at the table, with only 5 left in,
so a good chance they were playing any pair, or any A,K or Q rag.

Thanks for the feedback, I accept me being a dog in the hand, but online I
still think Ax suited seems a v strong hand.
My main point was it that bad a call to be bitched at left right and centre,
obviously people seem to think it was, I'll bare it in mind ...... and make
sure I say a big (and unasked for) TY on any pots it wins :)

Cheers
w***@yahoo.com
2005-04-29 15:54:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boston Green
Post by w***@yahoo.com
You're on the wrong side, but reasonable, of a race against any pair
below JJ. You are sucking hind tit against JJ, QQ, KK and even worse
against AA. You are dominated by AK or AQ. You have to hope that he has
AJo or AT for you to be a favorite.
Oh, I never thought my hand was favourite, was just surprised to find it
such a dog when it seems to come up trumps so often.
Post by w***@yahoo.com
If it has worked for you so far, you have been the beneficiary of too
small a sample size, ie lucky. Long-term AJs against someone who seems
to have a hand will cost you chips and tournaments and money.
I have hardly any 'live' experience, so possibly the way on-line poker seems
to either a) favour the dog in an all-in or b) flushes are so common
on-line, might be affecting the situation.
Post by w***@yahoo.com
If you think that your opponent is stealing, AJs becomes much more
viable, especially if you can raise. If YOU are stealing AJs is a
worthwhile hand because you have SOMETHING if you get called.
I didnt exactly think they were stealing, but they were down to I think
about 550 chips, and were the small stack at the table, with only 5 left in,
so a good chance they were playing any pair, or any A,K or Q rag.
Under those conditions, you are in good shape with AJs. In other
remarks you have shown a touching faith in this borderline hand.
Remember, past results are NOT valid expectations. The math will out.
Post by Boston Green
Thanks for the feedback, I accept me being a dog in the hand, but online I
still think Ax suited seems a v strong hand.
My main point was it that bad a call to be bitched at left right and centre,
obviously people seem to think it was, I'll bare it in mind ...... and make
sure I say a big (and unasked for) TY on any pots it wins :)
Cheers
Boston Green
2005-05-01 13:02:03 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for that fella.
Post by Boston Green
Post by Boston Green
Post by w***@yahoo.com
You're on the wrong side, but reasonable, of a race against any
pair
Post by Boston Green
Post by w***@yahoo.com
below JJ. You are sucking hind tit against JJ, QQ, KK and even
worse
Post by Boston Green
Post by w***@yahoo.com
against AA. You are dominated by AK or AQ. You have to hope that he
has
Post by Boston Green
Post by w***@yahoo.com
AJo or AT for you to be a favorite.
Oh, I never thought my hand was favourite, was just surprised to find
it
Post by Boston Green
such a dog when it seems to come up trumps so often.
Post by w***@yahoo.com
If it has worked for you so far, you have been the beneficiary of
too
Post by Boston Green
Post by w***@yahoo.com
small a sample size, ie lucky. Long-term AJs against someone who
seems
Post by Boston Green
Post by w***@yahoo.com
to have a hand will cost you chips and tournaments and money.
I have hardly any 'live' experience, so possibly the way on-line
poker seems
Post by Boston Green
to either a) favour the dog in an all-in or b) flushes are so common
on-line, might be affecting the situation.
Post by w***@yahoo.com
If you think that your opponent is stealing, AJs becomes much more
viable, especially if you can raise. If YOU are stealing AJs is a
worthwhile hand because you have SOMETHING if you get called.
I didnt exactly think they were stealing, but they were down to I
think
Post by Boston Green
about 550 chips, and were the small stack at the table, with only 5
left in,
Post by Boston Green
so a good chance they were playing any pair, or any A,K or Q rag.
Under those conditions, you are in good shape with AJs. In other
remarks you have shown a touching faith in this borderline hand.
Remember, past results are NOT valid expectations. The math will out.
Post by Boston Green
Thanks for the feedback, I accept me being a dog in the hand, but
online I
Post by Boston Green
still think Ax suited seems a v strong hand.
My main point was it that bad a call to be bitched at left right and
centre,
Post by Boston Green
obviously people seem to think it was, I'll bare it in mind ......
and make
Post by Boston Green
sure I say a big (and unasked for) TY on any pots it wins :)
Cheers
Boston Green
2005-04-29 11:14:23 UTC
Permalink
Also, just checking my Poker Tracker stats.

This is from 16,500 hands played since Xmas (ring only - I don't use PT for
tourney)

Win% Hand
71.11 AA
71.83 KK
50.98 AKs
56.52 AQs

42.35 AQo
43.24 AJs

On-line, AJs may not be such a big dog.
Post by Boston Green
Post by Boston Green
Exactly my thoughts, which is why I posted.
I thought it was a pretty good call, one that i'd make over and over
again.
Post by Boston Green
Even if i'd known I was up against AQ off I would still call it, just
as
Post by Boston Green
quickly. The number of times i've taken people out of MTT's with a
Ace rag
Post by Boston Green
flush draw.
I've only been playing since xmas past (christ, I sound like a ghost)
and
Post by Boston Green
often get bitched at calling big bets with A rag suited, but it seems
a
Post by Boston Green
profitable call, so i'm quite surprised to see the hand as a 2-1
underdog
Post by Boston Green
(or therabouts).
Thanks to everyone for their responces.
It's closer to a 3-1 'dog. Your call was about as bad as your
opponent's silly bitching. What got me was that he started complaining
BEFORE he lost. Most people would be de-LIGHTED if you called with AJs
when they put you all-in with AQo.
You're on the wrong side, but reasonable, of a race against any pair
below JJ. You are sucking hind tit against JJ, QQ, KK and even worse
against AA. You are dominated by AK or AQ. You have to hope that he has
AJo or AT for you to be a favorite.
If it has worked for you so far, you have been the beneficiary of too
small a sample size, ie lucky. Long-term AJs against someone who seems
to have a hand will cost you chips and tournaments and money.
If you think that your opponent is stealing, AJs becomes much more
viable, especially if you can raise. If YOU are stealing AJs is a
worthwhile hand because you have SOMETHING if you get called.
The other day a player thought I was stealing in a tournament and
re-raised me all-in (he was all-in but I was nearly all-in) with AJs. I
had AA. I did not think his actions were wrong because I DO steal a lot
and both of us were short-stacked enough that we needed chips. He was
somewhat unlucky that I had a real hand and he was unhappy when I
called, knowing that AJs is not a real hand. He was happier when the
board came J8J53 and perhaps celebrated a tad too much. However, I was
not unhappy that he called and, frankly, I don't expect to win every
time I am ahead.
Will in New Haven
--
"Hunting is hunting and mating is mating; The prey HAS no gender."
Feather from Poker for Cats
Post by Boston Green
Post by C The Shocker
Fucking pissy losers. Why didn't he show you his hand before you
called
Post by Boston Green
him,
Post by C The Shocker
so that you knew your odds? I swear to God, some people think they
have so
Post by Boston Green
Post by C The Shocker
many skills, yet it's still down to the luck of the cards. Bet or
Fold,
Post by Boston Green
but
Post by C The Shocker
don't bitch because you lost on the board.
--
C The Shocker
Never trust a big butt and a smile!
jimpepper
2005-04-29 14:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boston Green
Also, just checking my Poker Tracker stats.
This is from 16,500 hands played since Xmas (ring only - I don't use PT for
tourney)
Win% Hand
71.11 AA
71.83 KK
50.98 AKs
56.52 AQs
42.35 AQo
43.24 AJs
On-line, AJs may not be such a big dog.
Thats true.You are dam near the favorite online!</sarcasm>

lmao
jim



_______________________________________________________________
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Boston Green
2005-04-29 15:00:27 UTC
Permalink
twice you've prooved what a tosser you are.
Post by jimpepper
Post by Boston Green
Also, just checking my Poker Tracker stats.
This is from 16,500 hands played since Xmas (ring only - I don't use PT for
tourney)
Win% Hand
71.11 AA
71.83 KK
50.98 AKs
56.52 AQs
42.35 AQo
43.24 AJs
On-line, AJs may not be such a big dog.
Thats true.You are dam near the favorite online!</sarcasm>
lmao
jim
_______________________________________________________________
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jimpepper
2005-04-29 17:00:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boston Green
twice you've prooved what a tosser you are.
No idea what a tosser is , nor do I care.
But one fact remains, you are still poor at math.
Online and live AJ vs AQ ,still has the same losing %.
Your justification of playing it is suspect, along with
your optimistically selective short term memory.
Before you get your panties in a bunch again, I
was joking,and I was laughing with you about the online vs. live crack.
But saying you would make that call holding AJs vs AQo is
just plain stupid.
jim
Post by Boston Green
Post by jimpepper
Post by Boston Green
Also, just checking my Poker Tracker stats.
This is from 16,500 hands played since Xmas (ring only - I don't use PT
for
Post by jimpepper
Post by Boston Green
tourney)
Win% Hand
71.11 AA
71.83 KK
50.98 AKs
56.52 AQs
42.35 AQo
43.24 AJs
On-line, AJs may not be such a big dog.
Thats true.You are dam near the favorite online!</sarcasm>
lmao
jim
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jimpepper
2005-04-29 14:21:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boston Green
Exactly my thoughts, which is why I posted.
I thought it was a pretty good call, one that i'd make over and over again.
Even if i'd known I was up against AQ off I would still call it, just as
quickly. The number of times i've taken people out of MTT's with a Ace rag
flush draw.
I would never bitch about your calling tendencies.
Keep deluding yourself that a 3-1 dog is a profitable call.
Call me, anytime.
jim





_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
Chris in Texas
2005-04-28 23:31:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boston Green
Whats the odds/percentages PRE-FLOP ??
(Reason being I called an all in with AJ suited, oppenent turned AQ off and
started bitching, then bitched even more when he lost, saying he was HUGE
favourite before the flop, 3/1 or something)
That's funny. One of the "table experts" in our league, who used to piss people
off w/ his comments but has toned it down a little, still loves to comment on
every hand he's all-in on (at least he's not criticizing others, just justifying
his own play). If he's got overcards vs pocket pair, he'll say, "that's ok,
it's a coinflip." If he has the pocket pair vs. another's overcards, he'll say,
"Cool. I'm a 55% favorite to win."

He stopped criticizing other's play right around the time my sister made a bad
call against him and outdrew to knock him out and he was going on and on about
how bad her call was until she told him that she just learned the game so he
should just shut the fuck up. Which he did.

Chris

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Cerviche
2005-04-29 00:17:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boston Green
Whats the odds/percentages PRE-FLOP ??
(Reason being I called an all in with AJ suited, oppenent turned AQ off and
started bitching, then bitched even more when he lost, saying he was HUGE
favourite before the flop, 3/1 or something)
Here are the numbers, first with AJo and then AJs. The difference was
less than I thought.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=404209
pokenum -h as jd - ad qh
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Jd 391129 22.84 1221863 71.36 99312 5.80 0.257
Ad Qh 1221863 71.36 391129 22.84 99312 5.80 0.743

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=172334
pokenum -h as js - ad qh
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Js 479013 27.97 1139313 66.54 93978 5.49 0.307
Ad Qh 1139313 66.54 479013 27.97 93978 5.49 0.693

So it wasn't the best call. But it's gambling, eh? <grin>
Boston Green
2005-04-29 08:48:44 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, although below you dont have the AJ as suited, this is what comes
back with it so:-

cards %win
Qs Ac 66.54
Ah Jh 27.97
Post by Cerviche
Post by Boston Green
Whats the odds/percentages PRE-FLOP ??
(Reason being I called an all in with AJ suited, oppenent turned AQ off and
started bitching, then bitched even more when he lost, saying he was HUGE
favourite before the flop, 3/1 or something)
Here are the numbers, first with AJo and then AJs. The difference was
less than I thought.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=404209
pokenum -h as jd - ad qh
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Jd 391129 22.84 1221863 71.36 99312 5.80 0.257
Ad Qh 1221863 71.36 391129 22.84 99312 5.80 0.743
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=172334
pokenum -h as js - ad qh
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Js 479013 27.97 1139313 66.54 93978 5.49 0.307
Ad Qh 1139313 66.54 479013 27.97 93978 5.49 0.693
So it wasn't the best call. But it's gambling, eh? <grin>
cjv1212
2005-04-29 09:31:53 UTC
Permalink
Question - Why does Sklansky, in HEPFAP, stress being suited so much...
scenarios where you want to mix up your play with a raise, but make
sure you're suited, he says...

Other experts say that being suited is just an excuse to play poor
cards, since being suited doesn't add that much...
w***@yahoo.com
2005-04-29 14:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by cjv1212
Question - Why does Sklansky, in HEPFAP, stress being suited so much...
scenarios where you want to mix up your play with a raise, but make
sure you're suited, he says...
Other experts say that being suited is just an excuse to play poor
cards, since being suited doesn't add that much...
Being suited has some hidden virtue. Say you raise preflop with AQs and
get a flop of KT3 with two of your suit. Your one caller bets into you
and he's a solid player, probably has a King. Your Ace overcard isn't
worth a call, your gutshot isn't worth a call but those, combined with
your flush draw, are worth a call.

If you hit the Ace or the gutshot, you can credit the flush draw for
allowing you to stay in the hand. Don't credit it while your opponent
is screaming his head off about your hitting your guthsot, though, as
it would detract from the pleasure of hearing him scream.

Note that AQ isn't really a POOR hand. But not a great hand either.

Will in New Haven
Boston Green
2005-04-29 15:01:43 UTC
Permalink
Many thanks.
Post by cjv1212
Post by cjv1212
Question - Why does Sklansky, in HEPFAP, stress being suited so
much...
Post by cjv1212
scenarios where you want to mix up your play with a raise, but make
sure you're suited, he says...
Other experts say that being suited is just an excuse to play poor
cards, since being suited doesn't add that much...
Being suited has some hidden virtue. Say you raise preflop with AQs and
get a flop of KT3 with two of your suit. Your one caller bets into you
and he's a solid player, probably has a King. Your Ace overcard isn't
worth a call, your gutshot isn't worth a call but those, combined with
your flush draw, are worth a call.
If you hit the Ace or the gutshot, you can credit the flush draw for
allowing you to stay in the hand. Don't credit it while your opponent
is screaming his head off about your hitting your guthsot, though, as
it would detract from the pleasure of hearing him scream.
Note that AQ isn't really a POOR hand. But not a great hand either.
Will in New Haven
David Nicoson
2005-04-29 15:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by cjv1212
Question - Why does Sklansky, in HEPFAP, stress being suited
so much... scenarios where you want to mix up your play with a raise,
but make sure you're suited, he says...
Other experts say that being suited is just an excuse to play poor
cards, since being suited doesn't add that much...
Raising preflop into a big field with a hand that you suspect will be
behind if called isn't something you want to do a lot of anyway. So
you might as well pick one of the many opportunities when you are
suited. Furthermore, if you get multiple callers a few extra
percentage points is a big difference in expected value.

Just to be clear, all-in preflop in NL is a different animal than a
limit ring game
cjv1212
2005-05-01 00:03:54 UTC
Permalink
willreich - awesome explanation, thanks for posting that.

I was also interested in what sklansky said about chasing with
overcards... playing Kx instead of Ax, because if rags flop, it's more
likely there's a shitty ace out there than a shitty king....so if you
pair, it's less likely you're against 2 pair.
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