Discussion:
real question, not a bad beat whinge or moan
(too old to reply)
Nick Wool
2004-12-23 10:15:21 UTC
Permalink
I used to laugh at these people who say that party or paradise is rigged.
But something happened tonight in a 100 dollars Party SNG tha made me think.

4 players left...2 big stacks of about 3500...SB had 1600, I was in the BB
with with 1400, blinds at 50/100. Folds to SB, who raises to 200. I read
him on a steal....I push all my chips in with A9 off. Now here's the
interesting part...he called and showed Q6 0ff. 1200 more chips on Q6
off!!!! 1 place to the money!!!

Needless to say I lost the hand when I drew blank and he hit a Q. But it
was not the losing that had me thinking...because if he had bet all in on a
steal, and even if I had AA and lost...I would have put that down to just
one of those things that happen in poker.

What really got me thinking was that he CALLED over 90% of his chips with Q6
Off, 1 placed away from the money, like he KNEW he was going to hit.

I am NOT saying that PP is fixed...I just have a more open mind now. Or was
I just VERY unlucky in meeting an idiot?

All comments welcome.
Chris Bellomy
2004-12-23 10:41:08 UTC
Permalink
Nick Wool <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
: I used to laugh at these people who say that party or paradise is rigged.
: But something happened tonight in a 100 dollars Party SNG tha made me think.
:
: 4 players left...2 big stacks of about 3500...SB had 1600, I was in the BB
: with with 1400, blinds at 50/100. Folds to SB, who raises to 200. I read
: him on a steal....I push all my chips in with A9 off. Now here's the
: interesting part...he called and showed Q6 0ff. 1200 more chips on Q6
: off!!!! 1 place to the money!!!
:
: Needless to say I lost the hand when I drew blank and he hit a Q. But it
: was not the losing that had me thinking...because if he had bet all in on a
: steal, and even if I had AA and lost...I would have put that down to just
: one of those things that happen in poker.
:
: What really got me thinking was that he CALLED over 90% of his chips with Q6
: Off, 1 placed away from the money, like he KNEW he was going to hit.
:
: I am NOT saying that PP is fixed...I just have a more open mind now. Or was
: I just VERY unlucky in meeting an idiot?
:
: All comments welcome.

I'm no conspiracy theorist, and I don't want to think the
games are rigged, but I ran into an even weirder beat at
pokerroom a few months ago. Similar deal at a SNG, 4 players
left, I'm in 4th but very close to 3rd, both with nontrivial
stacks relative to the blinds still. I get QQ on the button
and raise all-in. The 3rd place player was on the BB and
called with 74 offsuit. 74 offsuit!

The flop came 653. Well, that was awfully convenient,
wasn't it?

Yeah, bad beats happen. Usually, though, it's bad players
overplaying meager hands and getting lucky. This, though,
couldn't be explained that way. 74 off isn't meager; it's
off-the-charts bad. To this day, I can't help but question
what really happened there. I just can't fathom why somebody
would invest the money and time to get that deep in a SNG
just to throw it away on 74o like that. It seriously made
me wonder if pokerroom had bots at the tables. It was that
insane of a call.

I haven't seen anything since then quite so egregious,
though, so I'm pretty much resigned to it having been a
case of drunken hubris or something similar.

cb
Nick0r
2004-12-23 10:45:43 UTC
Permalink
I doubt it's rigger, there's more chance you got a dodgy hand or two
with some weird-playing opponents.
Regards,
Nick Kisberg
http://www.cardschat.com
Poker Forums
Howard Beale
2004-12-23 11:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Wool
I used to laugh at these people who say that party or paradise is rigged.
But something happened tonight in a 100 dollars Party SNG tha made me think.
4 players left...2 big stacks of about 3500...SB had 1600, I was in the BB
with with 1400, blinds at 50/100. Folds to SB, who raises to 200. I read
him on a steal....I push all my chips in with A9 off. Now here's the
interesting part...he called and showed Q6 0ff. 1200 more chips on Q6
off!!!! 1 place to the money!!!
Needless to say I lost the hand when I drew blank and he hit a Q. But it
was not the losing that had me thinking...because if he had bet all in on a
steal, and even if I had AA and lost...I would have put that down to just
one of those things that happen in poker.
What really got me thinking was that he CALLED over 90% of his chips with Q6
Off, 1 placed away from the money, like he KNEW he was going to hit.
I am NOT saying that PP is fixed...I just have a more open mind now. Or was
I just VERY unlucky in meeting an idiot?
All comments welcome.
If it were rigged it would not be so obvious. He would call with a pair
of 4's that would hold up and you wouldn't feel so bad. In other words
there's no need to make the beats weird.

Howard Beale

"I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

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da pickle
2004-12-23 13:33:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Beale
Post by Nick Wool
I used to laugh at these people who say that party or paradise is rigged.
But something happened tonight in a 100 dollars Party SNG tha made me think.
4 players left...2 big stacks of about 3500...SB had 1600, I was in the BB
with with 1400, blinds at 50/100. Folds to SB, who raises to 200. I read
him on a steal....I push all my chips in with A9 off. Now here's the
interesting part...he called and showed Q6 0ff. 1200 more chips on Q6
off!!!! 1 place to the money!!!
Needless to say I lost the hand when I drew blank and he hit a Q. But it
was not the losing that had me thinking...because if he had bet all in on a
steal, and even if I had AA and lost...I would have put that down to just
one of those things that happen in poker.
What really got me thinking was that he CALLED over 90% of his chips with Q6
Off, 1 placed away from the money, like he KNEW he was going to hit.
I am NOT saying that PP is fixed...I just have a more open mind now. Or was
I just VERY unlucky in meeting an idiot?
All comments welcome.
If it were rigged it would not be so obvious. He would call with a pair
of 4's that would hold up and you wouldn't feel so bad. In other words
there's no need to make the beats weird.
Howard Beale
I hate to add to the noise about this subject, but there are new readers
every day. Your comment should be copied and pasted to each one of these
"weird-occurrences-so-it-must-be-rigged" posts. Everything that can happen
will happen ... eventually.
Gene Smith
2004-12-23 14:31:52 UTC
Permalink
I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything, but, why couldn't the guy be
"putting you on a steal" like you said you were doing? Why would someone
1 away from the money put 100% of his chips with A 9 offsuit? Even short
handed not a great play at those blind levels in my opinion. Perhaps he
thought you were trying to steal or one of those guys who can't let go of
his big blind.

I would focus on my play and how I played the hand rather than some
conspiricy theory.
Post by Nick Wool
I used to laugh at these people who say that party or paradise is rigged.
But something happened tonight in a 100 dollars Party SNG tha made me think.
4 players left...2 big stacks of about 3500...SB had 1600, I was in the BB
with with 1400, blinds at 50/100. Folds to SB, who raises to 200. I read
him on a steal....I push all my chips in with A9 off. Now here's the
interesting part...he called and showed Q6 0ff. 1200 more chips on Q6
off!!!! 1 place to the money!!!
Needless to say I lost the hand when I drew blank and he hit a Q. But it
was not the losing that had me thinking...because if he had bet all in on a
steal, and even if I had AA and lost...I would have put that down to just
one of those things that happen in poker.
What really got me thinking was that he CALLED over 90% of his chips with Q6
Off, 1 placed away from the money, like he KNEW he was going to hit.
I am NOT saying that PP is fixed...I just have a more open mind now. Or was
I just VERY unlucky in meeting an idiot?
All comments welcome.
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Backslider
2004-12-23 15:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Gene,

That doesn't make sense. Even if you put someone on a steal, why does
that mean it is right to call off all your chips with Q6? Unless you
think he's trying to steal with 36 or 26 or Q3 or something, it's a
horrible play.

No.. the two most logical answers are:
1. The guy with Q6 is a bad player.
2. This situation didn't really happen.
What was the Party Hand #, Nick Wool?
Nick Wool
2004-12-23 18:18:08 UTC
Permalink
OK....seems you think I am making this up...lol...I'll try to dig it up and
post the hand history hre...btw...I play in party as honest_joe...so I do
exsist! :)
Post by Backslider
Gene,
That doesn't make sense. Even if you put someone on a steal, why does
that mean it is right to call off all your chips with Q6? Unless you
think he's trying to steal with 36 or 26 or Q3 or something, it's a
horrible play.
1. The guy with Q6 is a bad player.
2. This situation didn't really happen.
What was the Party Hand #, Nick Wool?
Nick Wool
2004-12-23 18:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Backslider
Gene,
That doesn't make sense. Even if you put someone on a steal, why does
that mean it is right to call off all your chips with Q6? Unless you
think he's trying to steal with 36 or 26 or Q3 or something, it's a
horrible play.
1. The guy with Q6 is a bad player.
2. This situation didn't really happen.
What was the Party Hand #, Nick Wool?
***** Hand History for Game 1337419883 *****
NL Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee Trny:8096907 Level:4
Blinds(50/100) - Thursday, December 23, 03:46:15 EDT 2004
Table Table 11745 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: Kruse7 ( $4626 )
Seat 3: ls666 ( $1606 )
Seat 4: Honest_Joe ( $1398 )
Seat 9: jimbo1968 ( $2370 )
Trny:8096907 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Honest_Joe [ Ah 9s ]
jimbo1968 folds.
Kruse7 folds.
ls666 raises [200].
Honest_Joe is all-In [1298]
ls666 calls [1148].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Td, 8h, 2d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 5s ]
ls666 shows [ Qs, 6d ] a pair of queens.
Honest_Joe shows [ Ah, 9s ] high card ace.
Honest_Joe finished in fourth place.
ls666 wins 2796 chips from the main pot with a pair of queens.
??????
Honest_Joe has left the table.
Game #1337420763 starts.


Here's the hand history. As I said, it wasnt the beat that upset me, but
the call with Q6 off preflop. I like to think that there REALLY are players
that bad playing at 100 SNGs...but I will keep more of an open mind when
other people suggest that online poker might be rigged.
mo_charles
2004-12-23 15:21:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Smith
Why would someone
1 away from the money put 100% of his chips with A 9 offsuit? Even short
handed not a great play at those blind levels in my opinion. Perhaps he
thought you were trying to steal or one of those guys who can't let go of
his big blind.
four handed and short stacked, always wait for aa to push.

mo_charles

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Nick Wool
2004-12-23 18:16:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Smith
I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything, but, why couldn't the guy be
"putting you on a steal" like you said you were doing?
Point taken...Diffrence was even if I *KNEW* he was stealing, I would have
folded my A9 to an all in bet. Your not getting the point that he CALLED
with Q6 off. As I said, are there really players that bad they called an
all in with Q6 o 1 place away from money with a healthy stack?

Why would someone
Post by Gene Smith
1 away from the money put 100% of his chips with A 9 offsuit? Even short
handed not a great play at those blind levels in my opinion. Perhaps he
thought you were trying to steal or one of those guys who can't let go of
his big blind.
I would focus on my play and how I played the hand rather than some
conspiricy theory.
I did not say that there was DEFINITELY some conspiricy, only that I am more
open to the idea after this incident. As to my play? What would you do?
Fold in the bb everytime to any sort of raise from the SB except AA KK QQ or
AK????
Aaron
2004-12-23 18:45:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Wool
Post by Gene Smith
I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything, but, why couldn't the guy be
"putting you on a steal" like you said you were doing?
Point taken...Diffrence was even if I *KNEW* he was stealing, I would have
folded my A9 to an all in bet. Your not getting the point that he CALLED
with Q6 off. As I said, are there really players that bad they called an
all in with Q6 o 1 place away from money with a healthy stack?
As I alluded to in my earlier reply to your post: YES. Some people just
SUCK, some people are STUPID, and some people (god bless em) are BOTH
STUPID AND SUCKY.

Get over yourself. He got lucky on a 60/40 shot, not even that big a
beat, really. Both his cards were live to pair, just like yours. It was
just a race to the finish with a mediocre hand against a trash hand. I
would never play it. You would never play it. But THOUSANDS of crappy
players make THOUSANDS of crappy plays every single day. They're helping
me to pay off my car.

And this opens your mind to what? Maybe you should open a book instead.
Post by Nick Wool
Why would someone
Post by Gene Smith
1 away from the money put 100% of his chips with A 9 offsuit? Even short
handed not a great play at those blind levels in my opinion. Perhaps he
thought you were trying to steal or one of those guys who can't let go of
his big blind.
I would focus on my play and how I played the hand rather than some
conspiricy theory.
I did not say that there was DEFINITELY some conspiricy, only that I am more
open to the idea after this incident. As to my play? What would you do?
Fold in the bb everytime to any sort of raise from the SB except AA KK QQ or
AK????
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mo_charles
2004-12-23 18:53:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Get over yourself.
mo_charles

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Nick Wool
2004-12-23 20:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Nick Wool
Post by Gene Smith
I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything, but, why couldn't the guy be
"putting you on a steal" like you said you were doing?
Point taken...Diffrence was even if I *KNEW* he was stealing, I would have
folded my A9 to an all in bet. Your not getting the point that he CALLED
with Q6 off. As I said, are there really players that bad they called an
all in with Q6 o 1 place away from money with a healthy stack?
As I alluded to in my earlier reply to your post: YES. Some people just
SUCK, some people are STUPID, and some people (god bless em) are BOTH
STUPID AND SUCKY.
Get over yourself. He got lucky on a 60/40 shot, not even that big a
beat, really. Both his cards were live to pair, just like yours. It was
just a race to the finish with a mediocre hand against a trash hand. I
would never play it. You would never play it. But THOUSANDS of crappy
players make THOUSANDS of crappy plays every single day. They're helping
me to pay off my car.
And this opens your mind to what? Maybe you should open a book instead.
Arron, without wishing to get into a flame war with you....Yes, I agree Q6
off got lucky, but that wasnt my point. My point is not about the bad
beat...I've lost AA to AK, and TK to 9T without moaning, and those are much
worse beats. I would be more than happy to lose if he had bet all in, and I
had A9 and called (blame myself if I did), or even AA. Well, maybe not
happy, but certainly would not whine except kick the dog or the TV. The
point is that he CALLED my all in with those cards when neither of us were
short stacked and just one off the money.

Either there are that many bad players out there in which case I'll order my
Porsche now, or else he knew something I didn't. I could maybe understand
it more in a low limit (5 or 10 bucks SNG, but 100 bucks?) So its opened my
mind that some people MIGHT have the system hacked, or the system MIGHT be
rigged. Does that seem reasonable to you?

I haven't yet learn how to read. So please post a few suggestions in a few
years time as to what books are best, once I have learnt how to read. Thank
you.
Aaron
2004-12-23 21:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Smith
Post by Aaron
Post by Nick Wool
Post by Gene Smith
I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything, but, why couldn't the
guy be
Post by Aaron
Post by Nick Wool
Post by Gene Smith
"putting you on a steal" like you said you were doing?
Point taken...Diffrence was even if I *KNEW* he was stealing, I would
have
Post by Aaron
Post by Nick Wool
folded my A9 to an all in bet. Your not getting the point that he
CALLED
Post by Aaron
Post by Nick Wool
with Q6 off. As I said, are there really players that bad they called
an
Post by Aaron
Post by Nick Wool
all in with Q6 o 1 place away from money with a healthy stack?
As I alluded to in my earlier reply to your post: YES. Some people just
SUCK, some people are STUPID, and some people (god bless em) are BOTH
STUPID AND SUCKY.
Get over yourself. He got lucky on a 60/40 shot, not even that big a
beat, really. Both his cards were live to pair, just like yours. It was
just a race to the finish with a mediocre hand against a trash hand. I
would never play it. You would never play it. But THOUSANDS of crappy
players make THOUSANDS of crappy plays every single day. They're helping
me to pay off my car.
And this opens your mind to what? Maybe you should open a book instead.
Arron, without wishing to get into a flame war with you....Yes, I agree Q6
off got lucky, but that wasnt my point. My point is not about the bad
beat...I've lost AA to AK, and TK to 9T without moaning, and those are much
worse beats. I would be more than happy to lose if he had bet all in, and I
had A9 and called (blame myself if I did), or even AA. Well, maybe not
happy, but certainly would not whine except kick the dog or the TV. The
point is that he CALLED my all in with those cards when neither of us were
short stacked and just one off the money.
Either there are that many bad players out there in which case I'll order my
Porsche now, or else he knew something I didn't. I could maybe understand
it more in a low limit (5 or 10 bucks SNG, but 100 bucks?) So its opened my
mind that some people MIGHT have the system hacked, or the system MIGHT be
rigged. Does that seem reasonable to you?
I haven't yet learn how to read. So please post a few suggestions in a few
years time as to what books are best, once I have learnt how to read. Thank
you.
Sorry, not trying to start a 'flame war' with you here. I'm just a little
short on patience for the whole "online is rigged" argument. I apologize
if I came across as harsh.

Look at the reply I posted about the player who called me all in with two
undercards to the board and a flush draw (with two pair on board). It's
analagous to your situation - you were playing in a $100 sit-and-go, he
put his whole $60 stack in with zero outs...not just that he had zero
outs, but he could SEE that if I had a jack or queen (which I was
representing) then he was drawing dead. So, it's not like he could think
that he had a chance in hell. Obviously, he DIDN'T think about it at all.

All I'm saying is that it is unreasonable to assume that someone can see
the future cards (through hacking, for example) or that the site juiced
the board to beat you. However, it is, given the volumes of evidence
through plays such as the one that I describe, VERY reasonable that he was
simply an idiot or gambling fanatic, and took a chance to bust you with a
crap hand, and then got lucky.

I've also played many sit and gos, and had people CALL all in with hands
like K2 offsuit and shit, and - of course - they lose most of the time.
MOST of the time. But sometimes they win, and it stings. But it isn't
rigged against me or you. It just IS.

Maybe this guy is a vice-president of a retail catalog company, and
usually plays blackjack in Vegas for $100 a hand, and this $100 SNG is
just a fun little diversion for a little while conveniently accessible
from home/office etc. In that case, maybe he just doesn't care about the
money but does care about the gamble. While you care about the money, he
may not, so it really doesn't make any difference if there are 4 players
left or what the stack sizes are etc.

He just wanted a thrill.

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Chris Bellomy
2004-12-23 21:59:54 UTC
Permalink
Aaron <***@webnntp.invalid> wrote:

: Maybe this guy is a vice-president of a retail catalog company, and
: usually plays blackjack in Vegas for $100 a hand, and this $100 SNG is
: just a fun little diversion for a little while conveniently accessible
: from home/office etc. In that case, maybe he just doesn't care about the
: money but does care about the gamble. While you care about the money, he
: may not, so it really doesn't make any difference if there are 4 players
: left or what the stack sizes are etc.
:
: He just wanted a thrill.

Good point. Great point.

cb
ChrisBrown
2004-12-23 14:54:19 UTC
Permalink
This was a bad beat whining post.

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Nick Wool
2004-12-23 18:38:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by ChrisBrown
This was a bad beat whining post.
Chris...firstly, thanks for some of your advice on how to improve my play
when you replied to some of my postings earlier. Secondly, please give me a
little credit. If I were to whine about bad beats, I could fill the whole
of RGP with horror stories, as I sure we all could. Bad beats are part of
the game, and I have no complain about my AA losing to AK, or TK losing 9T
(got busted out of last night large caps tourney in 15th place with that
hand!). But at least they were playable hands. The calls might have been
questionable, but it doesn't rank anything more then 'shit happens'.

But surely a call with Q6 off, all in, preflop, 1 place from the
money....Are there REALLY players that bad playing for reasonably high
stakes? (I play in both 100 and 200 SNGs, and to me, thats quite high
stake)
ChrisBrown
2004-12-23 21:02:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Wool
If I were to whine about bad beats, I could fill the whole
of RGP with horror stories, as I sure we all could.
Not me. i've never suffered a bad beat. for me a bad beat can only occur
when u flop quads or better and then get beat by 2 perfect cards.
Everything else is just an unfortunate occurence.
Post by Nick Wool
But surely a call with Q6 off, all in, preflop, 1 place from the
money....Are there REALLY players that bad playing for reasonably high
stakes? (I play in both 100 and 200 SNGs, and to me, thats quite high
stake)
Nick, unless u really think that that this 1 particular person has
foreknowledge of your hand and what the next 5 cards will be, then this is
a bad beat/conspiracy theory post. There's just no way to get around
that. I mean seriously, what's easier to believe, that this guy made a
poor decision or that he's an agent for Party poker hired to cheat SnGs?

He probably put u on a resteal and was wrong but got lucky. u should
leave it at that.

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Chris Bellomy
2004-12-23 22:03:29 UTC
Permalink
ChrisBrown <***@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
: On Dec 23 2004 12:38 PM, Nick Wool wrote:
:
:
: > If I were to whine about bad beats, I could fill the whole
: > of RGP with horror stories, as I sure we all could.
:
: Not me. i've never suffered a bad beat. for me a bad beat can only occur
: when u flop quads or better and then get beat by 2 perfect cards.
: Everything else is just an unfortunate occurence.

Well, there's a different discussion. For me, a bad beat occurs
when someone calls when they should know that they're dominated,
and then sucks in their card(s) anyway. Anytime a stupid decision
is rewarded, or a smart one punished, constitutes a bad beat.

In my book, anyway. YMMV.
Nick Wool
2004-12-23 23:40:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
: > If I were to whine about bad beats, I could fill the whole
: > of RGP with horror stories, as I sure we all could.
: Not me. i've never suffered a bad beat. for me a bad beat can only occur
: when u flop quads or better and then get beat by 2 perfect cards.
: Everything else is just an unfortunate occurence.
Well, there's a different discussion. For me, a bad beat occurs
when someone calls when they should know that they're dominated,
and then sucks in their card(s) anyway. Anytime a stupid decision
is rewarded, or a smart one punished, constitutes a bad beat.
In my book, anyway. YMMV.
Hmmm...I like your idea of a bad beat. But sometimes its hard to know if
your are dominated, or if a decision is stupid before the cards are turned
over. For example...AK on button raise 6 times BB with 5 limpers....UTG
flat calls, and the rest fold. Flop comes AK2 rainbow....UTG bets all
in...Should AK call? lets say AK calls, and UTG shows 22...Was it a stupid
decision for AK to call? Alternatively, AK folds, and UTG shows AQ because
he think he had the best hand, and didn't want be seen as a bluffer. So how
would we know which is the more stupid action prior to the cards being
turned over?

We could argue that its wrong to call, but at the same time, if we fold
hands like top 2 pairs in a raised pot everytime we face some strength,
would it not also be wrong? We can argue in situation like this, we play
the player. But how often do we get to play with the same players in an
online environment?

Large cap tourney in party last night....15 players left, blinds at
3/6000...7 players on our table, everyone in button or sb were stealing left
right and centre, a raise EVERY hand from those 2 positions if it was
folded to them...Sb had 42000 (about)...I was in BB with 30000 (average was
about 60K)...folds to sb, who raises to 12K...Was it stupid or smart of me
to put all my chips with TK o to resteal against a random hand? And was it
stupid or smart of him to call me with 9To? A marginal but playable hand
against a random hand. I actually lost that hand when he hit a 678
straight, and got busted out, but I didnt think he played THAT badly, given
that we were all trying to steal. Yet I still classified that as a bad beat
because I had him dominated, but I didn't think his call was stupid given
the level of the blinds.

BTW...before anyone asks what the hell I was doing putting all my chips in
with TKo...those blinds soon eat you up if you wait only for big hands to
play. I could only last for about 2 more rounds of blinds after
this...(3/6000, 9K a round), and the action was fold or raise in every
hand...no one limped at all. Flat calling a raise would probably meant that
I get bleeded to death if I don't hit at flop (12K a go, how many gos can I
afford?). So was it stupid or smart to make a stand against the sb making
the min raise?

I am not as boardminded as chris, as I would classify a bad beat as anytime
I lose when I am at least 2 to 1 favourite. So in my case, bad beats happen
a lot, and I try not to whine too much about them...:-)
Chris Bellomy
2004-12-24 00:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Nick Wool <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
:
: "Chris Bellomy" <***@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote in message
: news:***@redshark.goodshow.net...
: > ChrisBrown <***@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
: > : On Dec 23 2004 12:38 PM, Nick Wool wrote:
: > :
: > :
: > : > If I were to whine about bad beats, I could fill the whole
: > : > of RGP with horror stories, as I sure we all could.
: > :
: > : Not me. i've never suffered a bad beat. for me a bad beat can only
: occur
: > : when u flop quads or better and then get beat by 2 perfect cards.
: > : Everything else is just an unfortunate occurence.
: >
: > Well, there's a different discussion. For me, a bad beat occurs
: > when someone calls when they should know that they're dominated,
: > and then sucks in their card(s) anyway. Anytime a stupid decision
: > is rewarded, or a smart one punished, constitutes a bad beat.
: >
: > In my book, anyway. YMMV.
:
: Hmmm...I like your idea of a bad beat. But sometimes its hard to know if
: your are dominated, or if a decision is stupid before the cards are turned
: over. For example...AK on button raise 6 times BB with 5 limpers....UTG
: flat calls, and the rest fold. Flop comes AK2 rainbow....UTG bets all
: in...Should AK call?

That wouldn't fall in the realm of bad beats either way for me,
because the flop is so friendly to AK.

: lets say AK calls, and UTG shows 22...Was it a stupid
: decision for AK to call?

Actually, it was a stupid decision for 22 to call pre-flop!

: Alternatively, AK folds, and UTG shows AQ because
: he think he had the best hand, and didn't want be seen as a bluffer. So how
: would we know which is the more stupid action prior to the cards being
: turned over?

I wouldn't consider any aspect of that stupid play. Maybe
a bit reckless, but not out-and-out stupid.

Stupid is four folks left in a SNG with nobody especially
weak. UTG pushes all in (say, 8xBB) and BB calls with a
roughly equal stack... holding A4.

As far as I'm concerned, almost any win for A4 in this
situation is a terrible beat. He has to figure that he's
up against something like AK or a pp higher than 4's. In
either case he's a heavy underdog, and he should know it.

Yet, I see this routinely. And, of course, they win their
1/3 of these confrontations.

I'm generally pretty forgiving of preflop all-ins that
turn into underdog wins, because the favorite in those
situations usually isn't all that far ahead when they
go in. What makes me crazy is all-ins after the flop
when the board has 488, one player pushes, and another
calls holding 33. I've had this particular flavor of
moron suck out the 3 on me more times than I care to
count. I certainly haven't won 90% of these situations.
The law of averages owes me bigtime.
ChrisBrown
2004-12-24 02:19:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Actually, it was a stupid decision for 22 to call pre-flop!
Why is it smart for the favored hand to fold? should u always fold
against a hand that will lfop nothing 2/3 of the time?
Post by Chris Bellomy
Stupid is four folks left in a SNG with nobody especially
weak. UTG pushes all in (say, 8xBB) and BB calls with a
roughly equal stack... holding A4.
As far as I'm concerned, almost any win for A4 in this
situation is a terrible beat. He has to figure that he's
up against something like AK or a pp higher than 4's. In
either case he's a heavy underdog, and he should know it.
why would he have to figure that? the range of hands needed to raise
all-in in that situation is MUCH broader than that and a good % of the
time u'll be a 60/40 favorite. Its 4 handed, not a full game. A4 isn't
that great but to say that calling with it in that situation is stupid is
just flat out wrong.

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Chris Bellomy
2004-12-24 03:17:25 UTC
Permalink
ChrisBrown <***@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
: On Dec 23 2004 6:27 PM, Chris Bellomy wrote:
:
:
: > Actually, it was a stupid decision for 22 to call pre-flop!
:
: Why is it smart for the favored hand to fold? should u always fold
: against a hand that will lfop nothing 2/3 of the time?

Why should a holder of 22 assume that he's ahead?

: > Stupid is four folks left in a SNG with nobody especially
: > weak. UTG pushes all in (say, 8xBB) and BB calls with a
: > roughly equal stack... holding A4.
: >
: > As far as I'm concerned, almost any win for A4 in this
: > situation is a terrible beat. He has to figure that he's
: > up against something like AK or a pp higher than 4's. In
: > either case he's a heavy underdog, and he should know it.
:
: why would he have to figure that? the range of hands needed to raise
: all-in in that situation is MUCH broader than that

No way. I want you at my table.

: and a good % of the
: time u'll be a 60/40 favorite.

Never against me.

cb
ChrisBrown
2004-12-24 04:13:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
: > Actually, it was a stupid decision for 22 to call pre-flop!
: Why is it smart for the favored hand to fold? should u always fold
: against a hand that will lfop nothing 2/3 of the time?
Why should a holder of 22 assume that he's ahead?
well, because its about 2.5x more likely that the other person doesn't
have a PP. i am of course disregarding the fact that a suited connector
is favored over 22 since most people don't raise with those hands.
Post by Chris Bellomy
: why would he have to figure that? the range of hands needed to raise
: all-in in that situation is MUCH broader than that
No way. I want you at my table.
So u're telling me that u've never gone all-in (or raised a considerable
amount) before the flop without a pocket pair or AK? Most of the time
that i've been in the raising situation, my all-in is dependant upon what
range of hands i think my opponent would need to have in order to call my
all-in, not what i actually held.

If i ever play SnGs again i'll be glad to sit at your table. preferably
to your left. that way when i get bored to tears with playing in it, i
can just wait for u to get a hand and dump my chips to a fellow "Chris B."

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Chris Bellomy
2004-12-24 05:12:23 UTC
Permalink
ChrisBrown <***@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
: On Dec 23 2004 9:17 PM, Chris Bellomy wrote:
:
: > ChrisBrown <***@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
: > : On Dec 23 2004 6:27 PM, Chris Bellomy wrote:
: > :
: > :
: > : > Actually, it was a stupid decision for 22 to call pre-flop!
: > :
: > : Why is it smart for the favored hand to fold? should u always fold
: > : against a hand that will lfop nothing 2/3 of the time?
: >
: > Why should a holder of 22 assume that he's ahead?
:
: well, because its about 2.5x more likely that the other person doesn't
: have a PP. i am of course disregarding the fact that a suited connector
: is favored over 22 since most people don't raise with those hands.
:
: > : why would he have to figure that? the range of hands needed to raise
: > : all-in in that situation is MUCH broader than that
: >
: > No way. I want you at my table.
:
: So u're telling me that u've never gone all-in (or raised a considerable
: amount) before the flop without a pocket pair or AK?

Never have I gone all-in preflop without something that would
be well ahead of A4, whether it was a PP or Ax where x was high,
when my stack wasn't critically low.

I play a very tight game.
Nick Wool
2004-12-24 16:22:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
: So u're telling me that u've never gone all-in (or raised a considerable
: amount) before the flop without a pocket pair or AK?
Never have I gone all-in preflop without something that would
be well ahead of A4, whether it was a PP or Ax where x was high,
when my stack wasn't critically low.
I play a very tight game.
Chris, far from it for me to comment on your play, given that I am not that
good myself, but don't you think you play a little too tight for the latter
stages of SNG and MTTs?

The blinds can kill you if you've dont take a chance to steal, or make a
stand with hands that are worse than A4. How about QK or JK suited, which
are both 60/40 dogs to A4? If you wait for Ax (where x>8) or med PP to
steal or make a stand, 9 times out of 10 you'll be blinded to death. The
other one time you might be unlucky, or you might lose to another big hand.
So what's the better play in terms of EV in the long term?

Just my two cents worth.
ChrisBrown
2004-12-24 02:26:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Wool
Post by Chris Bellomy
: > If I were to whine about bad beats, I could fill the whole
: > of RGP with horror stories, as I sure we all could.
: Not me. i've never suffered a bad beat. for me a bad beat can only
occur
Post by Chris Bellomy
: when u flop quads or better and then get beat by 2 perfect cards.
: Everything else is just an unfortunate occurence.
Well, there's a different discussion. For me, a bad beat occurs
when someone calls when they should know that they're dominated,
and then sucks in their card(s) anyway. Anytime a stupid decision
is rewarded, or a smart one punished, constitutes a bad beat.
In my book, anyway. YMMV.
Hmmm...I like your idea of a bad beat.
so let me get this straight. In a 7 card game, a bad beat occurs anytime
the player with the better first 2 cards, which may or may not be part of
that player's final 5 card hand, loses? So if AK beats any pair it's
always a bad beat? Or if a pocket pair 77-22 beats JTs then its a bad
beat?
Post by Nick Wool
I am not as boardminded as chris, as I would classify a bad beat as anytime
I lose when I am at least 2 to 1 favourite.
so if u hold JhTh, your opponent holds 7s7d and the board is Qh9h2c u
would consider it a bad beat if u didn't win?

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Nick Wool
2004-12-24 03:44:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by ChrisBrown
Post by Nick Wool
Post by Chris Bellomy
: > If I were to whine about bad beats, I could fill the whole
: > of RGP with horror stories, as I sure we all could.
: Not me. i've never suffered a bad beat. for me a bad beat can only
occur
Post by Chris Bellomy
: when u flop quads or better and then get beat by 2 perfect cards.
: Everything else is just an unfortunate occurence.
Well, there's a different discussion. For me, a bad beat occurs
when someone calls when they should know that they're dominated,
and then sucks in their card(s) anyway. Anytime a stupid decision
is rewarded, or a smart one punished, constitutes a bad beat.
In my book, anyway. YMMV.
Hmmm...I like your idea of a bad beat.
so let me get this straight. In a 7 card game, a bad beat occurs anytime
the player with the better first 2 cards, which may or may not be part of
that player's final 5 card hand, loses? So if AK beats any pair it's
always a bad beat? Or if a pocket pair 77-22 beats JTs then its a bad
beat?
Chris, you are not being fair here...after 'Hmmm...I like your idea of a bad
beat. ', there was a but.... in which I said that it is very often difficult
to know whether a decision is stupid or smart until the cards are turned
over.....but AK beating anypair except AA or KK would not be a bad beat, as
a lot of people would still call the bet even if they know that the other
person has a pp. Surely any close race cannot be classified as stupid and
therefore not bad beats.
Post by ChrisBrown
Post by Nick Wool
I am not as boardminded as chris, as I would classify a bad beat as anytime
I lose when I am at least 2 to 1 favourite.
so if u hold JhTh, your opponent holds 7s7d and the board is Qh9h2c u
would consider it a bad beat if u didn't win?
Chris

Lets do the odds, shall we? open ended straight flush, 15 outs...2
overcards, 6 outs...that leaves us with 21...discount a couple of the
overcard outs, because he might hit a set, ok? Shall we say discount one
more out because he might hit a backdoor boat or quads? That leaves us with
18 outs...

Now 18 outs means I'll be the 62/38 favourite....not quite 'at least 2 to
1'...so no, that would not be a bad beat to me, but I will push in all my
chips in everytime, if he flips over 77 at flop. Even in most cases, I
would push in most of my chips at flop with that hand, unless a rock bet or
reraise me all in...then I might let it go because he might have a set, or
if I read someone on a higher flush draw...

Now I am not sure if I did the odds right, because I only worked them out by
rule of thumb, doubtless someone will post a more accurate figure after they
have ran in through a simulator.

A final question, what would 77 be doing calling a big bet with that flop?
Chris Bellomy
2004-12-24 03:23:34 UTC
Permalink
Chris Bellomy <***@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
: ChrisBrown <***@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
: : On Dec 23 2004 12:38 PM, Nick Wool wrote:
: :
: :
: : > If I were to whine about bad beats, I could fill the whole
: : > of RGP with horror stories, as I sure we all could.
: :
: : Not me. i've never suffered a bad beat. for me a bad beat can only occur
: : when u flop quads or better and then get beat by 2 perfect cards.
: : Everything else is just an unfortunate occurence.
:
: Well, there's a different discussion. For me, a bad beat occurs
: when someone calls when they should know that they're dominated,
: and then sucks in their card(s) anyway. Anytime a stupid decision
: is rewarded, or a smart one punished, constitutes a bad beat.

It took me about two hours to walk right into one:

Seat 1: WackHead ($1,470 in chips)
Seat 2: bamarich ($840 in chips)
Seat 3: cbellomy [10C,7S] ($1,860 in chips)
Seat 4: bulldawgz61 ($1,260 in chips)
Seat 5: DrCarmon ($1,360 in chips)
Seat 6: loonybird ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 7: MI49441 ($1,580 in chips)
Seat 8: jibbidy ($1,440 in chips)
Seat 9: tophatusa ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 10: Switz30 ($2,190 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
bamarich posts blind ($10), cbellomy posts blind ($20).

PRE-FLOP
bulldawgz61 calls $20, DrCarmon folds, loonybird folds, MI49441 calls $20,
jibbidy folds, tophatusa calls $20, Switz30 folds, WackHead folds, bamarich
calls $10, cbellomy checks.

FLOP [board cards 7H,3C,3H ]
bamarich checks, cbellomy checks, bulldawgz61 checks, MI49441 checks,
tophatusa checks.

TURN [board cards 7H,3C,3H,3D ]
bamarich checks, cbellomy bets $200, bulldawgz61 folds, MI49441 folds,
tophatusa folds, bamarich calls $200.

RIVER [board cards 7H,3C,3H,3D,JH ]
bamarich checks, cbellomy bets $200, bamarich calls $200.

SHOWDOWN
cbellomy shows [ 10C,7S ]
bamarich shows [ 2S,JD ]
bamarich wins $900.
Aaron
2004-12-23 16:10:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Wool
I used to laugh at these people who say that party or paradise is rigged.
But something happened tonight in a 100 dollars Party SNG tha made me think.
4 players left...2 big stacks of about 3500...SB had 1600, I was in the BB
with with 1400, blinds at 50/100. Folds to SB, who raises to 200. I read
him on a steal....I push all my chips in with A9 off. Now here's the
interesting part...he called and showed Q6 0ff. 1200 more chips on Q6
off!!!! 1 place to the money!!!
Needless to say I lost the hand when I drew blank and he hit a Q. But it
was not the losing that had me thinking...because if he had bet all in on a
steal, and even if I had AA and lost...I would have put that down to just
one of those things that happen in poker.
What really got me thinking was that he CALLED over 90% of his chips with Q6
Off, 1 placed away from the money, like he KNEW he was going to hit.
I am NOT saying that PP is fixed...I just have a more open mind now. Or was
I just VERY unlucky in meeting an idiot?
All comments welcome.
Dude, get over it. Here's the real, simple, concise, and total answer:
some people - even some people that have lots of money - are STUPID. They
call all in with Q6o preflop.

One day I was playing in a $50 max buy-in no limit cash game on
Pokerstars. The action prior to this is unimportant, but on 4th street I
was heads up against this one guy with a board of QcJcJdQh. I had AdQd.
I was first to act and bet the rest of my stack into the pot - I had about
$50 left in front of me, and the pot was at this point about $25. This
guy thought and thought, then called his entire stack (which was also
still close to $50). River was an A. What did this guy have? Tc4c for a
flush draw on the turn. A FLUSH DRAW. HE CALLED ALL IN WITH TWO PAIR ON
BOARD WITH UNDERCARDS TO MAKE A FLUSH. And you wonder why this guy called
all in with Q6o? I repeat, some people are just plain STUPID.

Welcome it.

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erlinborn
2004-12-23 16:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Wool
I used to laugh at these people who say that party or paradise is rigged.
But something happened tonight in a 100 dollars Party SNG tha made me think.
4 players left...2 big stacks of about 3500...SB had 1600, I was in the BB
with with 1400, blinds at 50/100. Folds to SB, who raises to 200. I read
him on a steal....I push all my chips in with A9 off. Now here's the
interesting part...he called and showed Q6 0ff. 1200 more chips on Q6
off!!!! 1 place to the money!!!
Needless to say I lost the hand when I drew blank and he hit a Q. But it
was not the losing that had me thinking...because if he had bet all in on a
steal, and even if I had AA and lost...I would have put that down to just
one of those things that happen in poker.
What really got me thinking was that he CALLED over 90% of his chips with Q6
Off, 1 placed away from the money, like he KNEW he was going to hit.
I am NOT saying that PP is fixed...I just have a more open mind now. Or was
I just VERY unlucky in meeting an idiot?
All comments welcome.
The best and most questionable "rigged" play I've ever seen was in a .50-1
pokerstars NL cash game. The hand was being raised and reraised back and
forth between about 4 different players 50 cents at a time, with the big
blind calling them down all the way. After the 5th or 6th raise the big
blind reraises everyone all in for about $35 more and goes "tired of all
this raising b.s. let's gamble." He gets called by A-Q and J-J and
proceeds to flop two pair with 9-2 offsuit and bust two players. Needless
to say the table pretty much cleared out after that hand.

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GrouchySmurf1002
2004-12-23 17:07:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by erlinborn
The best and most questionable "rigged" play I've ever seen was in a .50-1
pokerstars NL cash game. The hand was being raised and reraised back and
forth between about 4 different players 50 cents at a time, with the big
blind calling them down all the way. After the 5th or 6th raise the big
blind reraises everyone all in for about $35 more and goes "tired of all
this raising b.s. let's gamble." He gets called by A-Q and J-J and
proceeds to flop two pair with 9-2 offsuit and bust two players. Needless
to say the table pretty much cleared out after that hand.
We won't get into the fact that the JJ, and more so the AQ, both made
questionable calls based on this betting.

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BKCshah
2004-12-23 17:13:26 UTC
Permalink
Ok, first I believe they had to be raising at least $1, but that's neither
here nor there. I've done similar things. If I figure I'm going to play
the hand, I'm going to play the hand. Why pussyfoot around with seemingly
min raises. I've never played in a game like that. Generally it's raise,
min raise, then bang or call. So the BB gambled instead of clicking call
$1 every time these guys messed around. I'm always scared of the guy in
the passenger seat unless I have AA. He got luck. oh well. I saw a hand
where AA got busted by 72o allin preflop last night. Crazy stuff can
happen, he sucked out with 92. Would either of the other guys complained
about having his money in that situation? Enough of my little rant.
Post by Nick Wool
Post by erlinborn
The best and most questionable "rigged" play I've ever seen was in a
.50-1
Post by erlinborn
pokerstars NL cash game. The hand was being raised and reraised back
and
Post by erlinborn
forth between about 4 different players 50 cents at a time, with the
big
Post by erlinborn
blind calling them down all the way. After the 5th or 6th raise the
big
Post by erlinborn
blind reraises everyone all in for about $35 more and goes "tired of
all
Post by erlinborn
this raising b.s. let's gamble." He gets called by A-Q and J-J and
proceeds to flop two pair with 9-2 offsuit and bust two players.
Needless
Post by erlinborn
to say the table pretty much cleared out after that hand.
We won't get into the fact that the JJ, and more so the AQ, both made
questionable calls based on this betting.
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dalbin
2004-12-23 17:05:12 UTC
Permalink
Not such a bad call to me I would assume I have about a 50% chance of being
the favorite against a full of shit bb and I think I call there for 1
reason,,if ya fold like a pussy then they will treat ya like one..keep
stickin it in ya till ya blind out..I often go all in with crap when there
is 4 when on bband small raise cause weak players playin for 3rd wont call
without a monster,and if they get lucky and have me I still have 5 cards
to help me out of the hot water ..so lots of times if the gut say go ya
follow it..no guts no glory yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee haw c ya at the
tables..P.S. maybe thats why they call me THE DEPOSIT KING
Nick Wool
2004-12-23 21:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by dalbin
Not such a bad call to me I would assume I have about a 50% chance of being
the favorite against a full of shit bb and I think I call there for 1
reason,,if ya fold like a pussy then they will treat ya like one..keep
stickin it in ya till ya blind out..I often go all in with crap when there
is 4 when on bband small raise cause weak players playin for 3rd wont call
without a monster,and if they get lucky and have me I still have 5 cards
to help me out of the hot water ..so lots of times if the gut say go ya
follow it..no guts no glory yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee haw c ya at the
tables..P.S. maybe thats why they call me THE DEPOSIT KING
LOL....nice post...without wishing to sound arrogant, what site do you play
on, and what is your handle? :)

I think you missed the point that he called....an all in bet from him might
have been good play, as I most certainly would have folded given the small
blinds level even if I had suspected that he was stealing. As I said many
times before, even if I had lost with AA if he had bet all in and I called,
I wouldn't whine half as much. It wasn't the beat that got me thinking, it
was the CALL with those two cards, at the stage of the tourney, with our two
stacks.

Not sure how you could say it wasnt a bad call....At BEST, you might be
60/40 ahead, but thats surely very unlikely with Q6 o. At worst, you are
85/15 behind to an overpair, but most likely you are 64/36 behind to an
overcard, or 70/30 behind to a mid pair, or to a dominating hand. Even
against a baby pair, surely the best you could hope for with Q6o, you are
55/45 behind. Not a bad call?
timeslayin
2004-12-23 17:27:05 UTC
Permalink
I can't help wondering if some percentage of these are just
"pilot error" with the user interface.
Post by Nick Wool
I used to laugh at these people who say that party or paradise is rigged.
But something happened tonight in a 100 dollars Party SNG tha made me think.
4 players left...2 big stacks of about 3500...SB had 1600, I was in the BB
with with 1400, blinds at 50/100. Folds to SB, who raises to 200. I read
him on a steal....I push all my chips in with A9 off. Now here's the
interesting part...he called and showed Q6 0ff. 1200 more chips on Q6
off!!!! 1 place to the money!!!
Needless to say I lost the hand when I drew blank and he hit a Q. But it
was not the losing that had me thinking...because if he had bet all in on a
steal, and even if I had AA and lost...I would have put that down to just
one of those things that happen in poker.
What really got me thinking was that he CALLED over 90% of his chips with Q6
Off, 1 placed away from the money, like he KNEW he was going to hit.
I am NOT saying that PP is fixed...I just have a more open mind now. Or was
I just VERY unlucky in meeting an idiot?
All comments welcome.
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metallifried
2004-12-23 19:04:10 UTC
Permalink
Possible explanations:

a) He thinks you are on a steal with complete crap (or else you
would've slowplayed, right?), so he thinks he is a favorite. He calls.
b) He thinks you have a low pair, and he has you covered, and doesn't
want to be the little stack after folding to you. So he calls,
figuring he's at a 50/50 shot.
c) He accidentally clicked the "call" button.
d) He's a crappy player who just got lucky to end up as high as 4th.
e) Some or all of the above.

Yeah, it's kinda suspect, but if you sit three monkeys at a typewriter
for long enough, eventually they will write Hamlet.
Post by Nick Wool
I used to laugh at these people who say that party or paradise is rigged.
But something happened tonight in a 100 dollars Party SNG tha made me think.
4 players left...2 big stacks of about 3500...SB had 1600, I was in the BB
with with 1400, blinds at 50/100. Folds to SB, who raises to 200. I read
him on a steal....I push all my chips in with A9 off. Now here's the
interesting part...he called and showed Q6 0ff. 1200 more chips on Q6
off!!!! 1 place to the money!!!
Needless to say I lost the hand when I drew blank and he hit a Q.
But it
Post by Nick Wool
was not the losing that had me thinking...because if he had bet all in on a
steal, and even if I had AA and lost...I would have put that down to just
one of those things that happen in poker.
What really got me thinking was that he CALLED over 90% of his chips with Q6
Off, 1 placed away from the money, like he KNEW he was going to hit.
I am NOT saying that PP is fixed...I just have a more open mind now.
Or was
Post by Nick Wool
I just VERY unlucky in meeting an idiot?
All comments welcome.
Ian Crorie
2004-12-29 13:08:05 UTC
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metallifried wrote:
[lines deleted]
Post by metallifried
Yeah, it's kinda suspect, but if you sit three monkeys at a typewriter
for long enough, eventually they will write Hamlet.
For Shakespeare you need 100 monkeys. With only 3, you get
"Play Poker Like the Pros".
da pickle
2004-12-29 14:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Crorie
[lines deleted]
Post by metallifried
Yeah, it's kinda suspect, but if you sit three monkeys at a typewriter
for long enough, eventually they will write Hamlet.
For Shakespeare you need 100 monkeys. With only 3, you get
"Play Poker Like the Pros".
To be or not to be ... that is the gezorinblat!

Opp
2004-12-25 09:26:35 UTC
Permalink
I don't understand how, or more importantly why, you would program the
software to let that specific person win that hand. Unless you think that
that individual person had some prior knowledge of what he was going to
hit as well as what cards you had? Anyway, maybe he has a lot of cash and
doesn't care about just making money - maybe he plays to win and decided
he was low-stacked enough to go all in and make a move. Maybe he just felt
your all-in was a semi-bluff and felt he was even money. Either way, it
was a horrible call.

Opp
Post by Nick Wool
I used to laugh at these people who say that party or paradise is rigged.
But something happened tonight in a 100 dollars Party SNG tha made me think.
4 players left...2 big stacks of about 3500...SB had 1600, I was in the BB
with with 1400, blinds at 50/100. Folds to SB, who raises to 200. I read
him on a steal....I push all my chips in with A9 off. Now here's the
interesting part...he called and showed Q6 0ff. 1200 more chips on Q6
off!!!! 1 place to the money!!!
Needless to say I lost the hand when I drew blank and he hit a Q. But it
was not the losing that had me thinking...because if he had bet all in on a
steal, and even if I had AA and lost...I would have put that down to just
one of those things that happen in poker.
What really got me thinking was that he CALLED over 90% of his chips with Q6
Off, 1 placed away from the money, like he KNEW he was going to hit.
I am NOT saying that PP is fixed...I just have a more open mind now. Or was
I just VERY unlucky in meeting an idiot?
All comments welcome.
_________________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
allfyre
2004-12-25 09:47:30 UTC
Permalink
Dude, you've just gotta understand that a lot of people out there are
UTTERLY INSANE. By that I mean that they are completely, totally non
compus mentus and should not be allowed to walk freely among decent
people.
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