Discussion:
OT: Paul Krugman on Ron Paul
(too old to reply)
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 20:05:51 UTC
Permalink
One of the fundamental problems in this country is the existence of
right-wing ideologues who persist in espousing exploded economic
theories, while ignoring empirical data showing these theories are
flat out wrong. The most extreme example is Ron Paul and others who
don't understand that the Austrian economists have been proven wrong
about everything.

Paul Krugman bitchslaps the fuck out of Ron Paul and the exploded
theories of Austrian economists --

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/16/opinion/gop-monetary-madness.html

December 15, 2011

G.O.P. Monetary Madness

By PAUL KRUGMAN

Apparently the desperate search of Republicans for someone they can
nominate not named Willard M. Romney continues. New polls suggest that
in Iowa, at least, we have already passed peak Gingrich. Next up:
Representative Ron Paul.

In a way, that makes sense. Mr. Romney isn’t trusted because he’s seen
as someone who cynically takes whatever positions he thinks will
advance his career — a charge that sticks because it’s true. Mr. Paul,
by contrast, has been highly consistent. I bet you won’t find video
clips from a few years back in which he says the opposite of what he’s
saying now.

Unfortunately, Mr. Paul has maintained his consistency by ignoring
reality, clinging to his ideology even as the facts have demonstrated
that ideology’s wrongness. And, even more unfortunately, Paulist
ideology now dominates a Republican Party that used to know better.

I’m not talking here about Mr. Paul’s antiwar views or his less well-
known views on civil and reproductive rights, which would horrify
liberals who think of him as a good guy. I’m talking, instead, about
his views on economics.

Mr. Paul identifies himself as a believer in “Austrian” economics — a
doctrine that it goes without saying rejects John Maynard Keynes but
is almost equally vehement in rejecting the ideas of Milton Friedman.
For Austrians see “fiat money,” money that is just printed without
being backed by gold, as the root of all economic evil, which means
that they fiercely oppose the kind of monetary expansion Friedman
claimed could have prevented the Great Depression — and which was
actually carried out by Ben Bernanke this time around.

O.K., a brief digression: the Federal Reserve doesn’t actually print
money (the Treasury does that). But the Fed does control the “monetary
base,” the sum of bank reserves and currency in circulation. So when
people talk about Mr. Bernanke printing money, what they really mean
is that the Fed expanded the monetary base.

And there has, indeed, been a huge expansion of the monetary base.
After Lehman Brothers fell, the Fed began lending large sums to banks
as well as buying a wide range of other assets, in a (successful)
attempt to stabilize financial markets, in the process adding large
amounts to bank reserves. In the fall of 2010, the Fed began another
round of purchases, in a less successful attempt to boost economic
growth. The combined effect of these actions was that the monetary
base more than tripled in size.

Austrians, and for that matter many right-leaning economists, were
sure about what would happen as a result: There would be devastating
inflation. One popular Austrian commentator who has advised Mr. Paul,
Peter Schiff, even warned (on Glenn Beck’s TV show) of the possibility
of Zimbabwe-style hyperinflation in the near future.

So here we are, three years later. How’s it going? Inflation has
fluctuated, but, at the end of the day, consumer prices have risen
just 4.5 percent, meaning an average annual inflation rate of only 1.5
percent. Who could have predicted that printing so much money would
cause so little inflation? Well, I could. And did. And so did others
who understood the Keynesian economics Mr. Paul reviles. But Mr.
Paul’s supporters continue to claim, somehow, that he has been right
about everything.

Still, while the original proponents of the doctrine won’t ever admit
that they were wrong — my experience is that nobody in the political
world ever admits to having been wrong about anything — you might
think that having been so completely off-base about something so
central to their belief system would have caused the Austrians to lose
popularity, even within the G.O.P. After all, as recently as the Bush
years, many Republicans were all for printing money when the economy
slumps. “Aggressive monetary policy can reduce the depth of a
recession,” declared the 2004 Economic Report of the President.

What has happened instead, however, is that hard-money doctrine and
paranoia about inflation have taken over the party, even as the
predicted inflation keeps failing to materialize. For example, in
February, Representative Paul Ryan, who is somewhat inexplicably
regarded as the party’s deep thinker on matters economic, harangued
Mr. Bernanke on how terrible it is to “debase” a currency and pointed
to a rise in commodity prices in late 2010 and early 2011 as evidence
that inflation was finally coming. Commodity prices have plunged since
then, but there is no sign that Mr. Ryan or anyone else is having
second thoughts.

Now, it’s still very unlikely that Ron Paul will become president.
But, as I said, his economic doctrine has, in effect, become the
official G.O.P. line, despite having been proved utterly wrong by
events. And what will happen if that doctrine actually ends up being
put into action? Great Depression, here we come.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
da pickle
2011-12-17 20:26:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Paul Krugman bitchslaps the fuck out of Ron Paul and the exploded
theories of Austrian economists --
Paul Frugman could not bitchslap his own dick, Wilhelm.
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 20:40:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Paul Krugman bitchslaps the fuck out of Ron Paul and the exploded
theories of Austrian economists --
Paul Frugman could not bitchslap his own dick, Wilhelm.
When you win a Nobel Prize in Economics, or at least show some
indication that you know anything at all about economics, I will
consider your opinion. Right now, you are one of the "right-wing
ideologues who persist in espousing exploded economic theories, while
ignoring empirical data showing these theories are flat out wrong."


William Coleman (ramashiva)
da pickle
2011-12-17 21:18:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Paul Krugman bitchslaps the fuck out of Ron Paul and the exploded
theories of Austrian economists --
Paul Frugman could not bitchslap his own dick, Wilhelm.
When you win a Nobel Prize in Economics, or at least show some
indication that you know anything at all about economics, I will
consider your opinion. Right now, you are one of the "right-wing
ideologues who persist in espousing exploded economic theories, while
ignoring empirical data showing these theories are flat out wrong."
I am pretty sure you are aware of leading Austrian economists with Nobel
Prizes. It seems to me that if you only listen to the Nobel Prize
winning economists that agree with your ideas and ignore the Nobel Prize
winning economists that have a different view ... that you are not
depending on actually "being" a Nobel Prize winner as criteria for much
of anything.

Wasn't Mr. Krugman an advisor to Enron? Is that a plus or a minus?
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 21:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
I am pretty sure you are aware of leading Austrian economists with Nobel
Prizes.
I am aware of one -- Hayek.
Post by da pickle
 It seems to me that if you only listen to the Nobel Prize
winning economists that agree with your ideas and ignore the Nobel Prize
winning economists that have a different view ...
The question isn't whether the economists agree with my ideas. The
question is whether the economists' theories agree with reality. By
this criterion, the Austrian economists fail miserably.
Post by da pickle
that you are not
depending on actually "being" a Nobel Prize winner as criteria for much
of anything.
Wasn't Mr. Krugman an advisor to Enron?  Is that a plus or a minus?
Are you going to continue your ad hominem attacks on Krugman, or are
you going to answer the question --

WHERE IS THE INFLATION???

Since you have chosen to smear Krugman with innuendo, here are the
actual facts of Krugman's involvement with Enron --

http://www.pkarchive.org/personal/EnronFAQ.html

MY CONNECTION WITH ENRON, ONE MORE TIME

SYNOPSIS: If you had any questions about Krugman in this diminishing
non-scandal, this piece should answer them

I really didn't want to say any more about the Enron advisory board
issue - I've already posted quite a lot of information here . I don't
have anything to hide, but my job at the New York Times is to write
about real issues, not myself. Still, the story keeps popping up.

Let me give the people bringing this up the benefit of the doubt, and
suppose that they really are concerned about journalistic ethics.
That's certainly a valid subject. It's important that a national
publication like the New York Times insist that its journalists be
free from conflicts of interest; kudos to my employers for their
strict rules, which insist that writers be free from anything that
might raise questions - rules that I have followed from the moment I
joined the Times. It's also important for a journalist to disclose
previous connections where they are relevant - which I have.

But somehow this keeps shifting from a real discussion of journalistic
ethics, the guidelines that publications should adopt and that writers
should follow, to a prurient fascination with other peoples'
paychecks. If that's all that it's about, then it's tabloid
journalism, not a real attempt to grapple with the issue.

Lately I find myself presumed guilty of an ethics violation simply
because I was paid for my time. All that anyone wants to talk about is
$50,000 (which turns out to be wrong - see below). There is such a
thing as earning money honestly; if you want to challenge a
journalist's ethics, you have to ask not how much he was paid but
when, for what, and whether it distorted his writing. It's
particularly important to get the context right when the person in
question had a successful non-journalistic career before he went into
journalism - which I did.

Too much of what I read about myself doesn't get even the most basic
facts right. Critics imply, falsely, that I received money from Enron
as a New York Times columnist - that I was receiving a bribe because
of a prominent journalistic position that I did not in fact have at
the time (unlike the other journalists who have served on that board,
who held the same jobs then that they do today). They don't
acknowledge that I disclosed my connection almost three years ago, and
again a year ago. And they don't acknowledge that I have been
criticizing Enron since January 2001, long before everyone else
started bashing the company.

By all means let's have a discussion about journalistic ethics; Enron
has made us all a lot more conscious of ethical issues involving
business. But a game of gotcha, in which anyone who received money
from Enron is lumped in with the genuine malefactors in this story,
does nothing to improve journalistic integrity - on the contrary, it's
counterproductive.

To make it easier for anyone who is still interested in this story to
get the facts right, here are some frequently asked questions about my
role on the Enron advisory board, with answers.

1. What did I do? In early 1999 I was asked to serve on a panel that
offered Enron executives briefings on economic and political issues.
As far as I knew at the time, they genuinely wanted to learn
something. I resigned from that board in the fall of 1999, when I
accepted an offer to write for the New York Times.

2. What was I paid? It turns out that I was actually paid $37,500 -
the last quarterly payment did not take place, because of my early
resignation from the board.

3. Was this exorbitant? It didn't seem so at the time. In 1998-1999 my
normal fee for a one-hour business speech in Boston or New York was
$20,000 - more if the speech involved long-distance travel. The Enron
board required that I spend 4 days in Houston. So the sum they offered
didn't seem out of line - if anything it seemed rather low compared
with my usual rates.

4. Was I being paid off because I was a journalist? That Enron board,
when I was on it, did not strike me as a board of pundits. It included
Larry Lindsey and Bob Zoellick - future Bush administration officials,
though I had no way of knowing that, but certainly not journalists. It
also included Pankaj Ghemawat, a strategy professor at Harvard, and
Irwin Stelzer, an economist at the American Enterprise Institute.
(Stelzer had a column in the London Times, but I didn't know that) The
only person there I thought of as a journalist was William Kristol - I
thought he was there to regale us with Washington gossip. And I
regarded myself as being in the same category as Ghemawat - an
academic expert, who was there because of his expertise.

An amazing number of people seem to think that I was paid by Enron
while working for the Times. I wasn't - when Enron approached me there
was no hint that a Times connection lay in my future. As soon as I
shook hands with the Times, I resigned from that board.

I did write monthly columns for two magazines in 1999, but I would not
have described myself as a journalist - no more so than, say, Laura
Tyson, Robert Barro, or or Gary Becker, respected economists who write
monthly columns for Business Week. I wrote a monthly column for
Fortune; that column was neither a major commitment of time nor a
major source of income. I also wrote a monthly column, for very little
money, for Slate. My main sources of income were teaching, consulting,
and business speaking.

5. Did I disclose my connection? Yes. I reported it the one time I
mentioned Enron in Fortune, almost three years ago. I reported it
again the first time I mentioned Enron in the New York Times, in a
highly critical article more than a year ago. I didn't say that I was
paid to serve on the board, but I thought that was obvious: who
volunteers his services to for-profit corporations?

One point that seems to have been missed in all the mud-slinging: I
was the only member of the board to declare my connection voluntarily.
Lindsey and Zoellick, as government officials, were required to
disclose their consulting; none of the other members uttered a peep
before the January 2002 New York Times article about the board.

6. Should I have disclosed the sum of money I received? I have always
understood that when writing about someone you disclose the fact of a
potential conflict of interest, not the financial details. If I had
disclosed the sum back in January 2001, when I first wrote about Enron
for the New York Times, it would have sounded strange - I'm sure
people would have accused me of bragging.

7. Did the payment from Enron cause me to write anything I would not
have written otherwise? No. Some people seem to think that because I
had nice things to say about Enron's energy trading in a Fortune
article - in which I disclosed my connection - I was being out of
character. But I have always been a free-market Keynesian: I like free
markets, but I want some government supervision to correct market
failures and ensure stability. Some of my pro-market Slate pieces
enraged people on the left - check out The accidental theorist , or
In praise of cheap labor . My Fortune piece about the rise of markets,
illustrated by Enron's energy trading, was an attempt to take a
sunshine break from the dark pieces I had been writing about the Asian
crisis; it was also a favor to my editors, who devoted that issue to e-
business. It wasn't at all out of character. In fact, the next
column I wrote for Fortune was also a pro-market piece, with kind
words for Milton Friedman and Margaret Thatcher.

8. Was Enron trying to buy my soul? That's for them to answer. But I
wasn't selling.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
da pickle
2011-12-17 22:06:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by da pickle
I am pretty sure you are aware of leading Austrian economists with Nobel
Prizes.
I am aware of one -- Hayek.
Post by da pickle
It seems to me that if you only listen to the Nobel Prize
winning economists that agree with your ideas and ignore the Nobel Prize
winning economists that have a different view ...
The question isn't whether the economists agree with my ideas. The
question is whether the economists' theories agree with reality. By
this criterion, the Austrian economists fail miserably.
Post by da pickle
that you are not
depending on actually "being" a Nobel Prize winner as criteria for much
of anything.
Wasn't Mr. Krugman an advisor to Enron? Is that a plus or a minus?
Are you going to continue your ad hominem attacks on Krugman, or are
you going to answer the question --
WHERE IS THE INFLATION???
That's all you got, Bill?
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Since you have chosen to smear Krugman with innuendo, here are the
actual facts of Krugman's involvement with Enron --
He said it, you believe it ... that is the end of it.

Sounds like a Baptist bumper sticker:

God said it, I believe it, that's the end of it.

[I take it you consider his experience with Enron a PLUS.]
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 22:29:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Are you going to continue your ad hominem attacks on Krugman, or are
you going to answer the question --
WHERE IS THE INFLATION???
That's all you got, Bill?
That's all I need, numbnuts. You have now made 11 posts in this
thread. You have yet to address the substance of Krugman's column.
Instead, you have shamelessly engaged in ad hominem attacks on
Krugman, in a desperate attempt to change the subject.
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Since you have chosen to smear Krugman with innuendo, here are the
actual facts of Krugman's involvement with Enron --
He said it, you believe it ... that is the end of it.
I am just giving Krugman's side of the story, since you chose to smear
him.
Post by da pickle
God said it, I believe it, that's the end of it.
[I take it you consider his experience with Enron a PLUS.]
From ad hominem to strawman. I consider Krugman's Enron experience an
irrelevancy in the context of his extremely distinguished career as an
economist, author, and columnist.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
da pickle
2011-12-17 22:34:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
I am just giving Krugman's side of the story, since you chose to smear
him.
Post by da pickle
God said it, I believe it, that's the end of it.
[I take it you consider his experience with Enron a PLUS.]
From ad hominem to strawman. I consider Krugman's Enron experience an
irrelevancy in the context of his extremely distinguished career as an
economist, author, and columnist.
William Coleman (ramashiva)
And you run like a scared school girl from the pointing out in
excruciating detail that he has no distinguished career at all.

Second only to Ann Coulter ... what a joke he is. Next I may move to
videos ... he moves from the worst writer in the world to the poorest
speaker ... well, maybe Rick Perry is worse, even though he is likely
much more capable.
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 23:19:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
And you run like a scared school girl from the pointing out in
excruciating detail that he has no distinguished career at all.
I am not running like a scared school girl from anything. I am
refusing to let you change the subject with ad hominem attacks.

You, on the other hand, ARE running like a scared school girl from
Krugman's column.
Post by da pickle
Second only to Ann Coulter ... what a joke he is.  Next I may move to
videos ... he moves from the worst writer in the world to the poorest
speaker ... well, maybe Rick Perry is worse, even though he is likely
much more capable.
You really are pathetic. Rather than admit that your economic
theories are exploded, you attack anyone who shows that is the case.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
da pickle
2011-12-17 22:26:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Paul Krugman bitchslaps the fuck out of Ron Paul and the exploded
theories of Austrian economists --
Paul Frugman could not bitchslap his own dick, Wilhelm.
When you win a Nobel Prize in Economics, or at least show some
indication that you know anything at all about economics, I will
consider your opinion.
And yet, you dismiss the views of a Nobel prize winner that disagrees
with your view out of hand.

Sorry, Bill, as much as I find the term sophomoric, your defense of
Frugman has been bitchslapped by those much smarter that you. You
failure to address the mountain of evidence presented showing that
dispite a Nobel prize, Mr. Krugman is a total partisan and contradicts
himself on a regular basis.

Putting your "faith" in Krugman is just not ramashivan at all.
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 22:49:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
When you win a Nobel Prize in Economics, or at least show some
indication that you know anything at all about economics, I will
consider your opinion.
And yet, you dismiss the views of a Nobel prize winner that disagrees
with your view out of hand.
No, I dismiss the views of a Nobel prize winner whose theories have
been exploded by objective reality.
Post by da pickle
Sorry, Bill, as much as I find the term sophomoric, your defense of
Frugman has been bitchslapped by those much smarter that you.
Give me a fucking break. First of all, I haven't defended Krugman. I
merely quoted a column which you won't discuss, for obvious reasons.

Second of all, I am quite confident that my IQ is several standard
deviations higher than the IQ of any of Krugman's critics.
Post by da pickle
 You failure to address the mountain of evidence presented showing that
dispite a Nobel prize, Mr. Krugman is a total partisan and contradicts
himself on a regular basis.
Why should I address any of this??? It's just a lame attempt to
change the subject with ad hominem attacks. I repeat. Ad hominem
arguments are logical fallacies. What part of that don't you
understand?
Post by da pickle
Putting your "faith" in Krugman is just not ramashivan at all.
I am not putting my faith in Krugman, you fucking imbecile. The facts
that he cites in his article are well known and indisputable.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
da pickle
2011-12-17 23:29:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
indisputable
William Coleman (ramashiva)
The simplest argument of all. No brag, just fact.

Good try, Bill.
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 23:35:23 UTC
Permalink
The simplest argument of all.  No brag, just fact.
Good try, Bill.
Pickle, why don't you just STFD and STFU? You are contributing
absolutely nothing to the thread but noise. Notice the other thread
participants are discussing the actual issues raised by Krugman's
column. You are just flinging shit like a spoiled child having a
temper tantrum.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
Beldin the Sorcerer
2011-12-18 03:40:59 UTC
Permalink
The simplest argument of all. No brag, just fact.
Good try, Bill.
Pickle, why don't you just STFD and STFU? You are contributing
absolutely nothing to the thread but noise. Notice the other thread
participants are discussing the actual issues raised by Krugman's
column. You are just flinging shit like a spoiled child having a
temper tantrum.

***
Willie, all you do is engage in public masturbation

You're a liar, a fool, and a bigot.
Other than that, though....
Pepe Papon
2011-12-19 08:24:01 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:26:45 -0600, da pickle
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Paul Krugman bitchslaps the fuck out of Ron Paul and the exploded
theories of Austrian economists --
Paul Frugman could not bitchslap his own dick, Wilhelm.
When you win a Nobel Prize in Economics, or at least show some
indication that you know anything at all about economics, I will
consider your opinion.
And yet, you dismiss the views of a Nobel prize winner that disagrees
with your view out of hand.
Sorry, Bill, as much as I find the term sophomoric, your defense of
Frugman has been bitchslapped by those much smarter that you. You
failure to address the mountain of evidence presented showing that
dispite a Nobel prize, Mr. Krugman is a total partisan and contradicts
himself on a regular basis.
Putting your "faith" in Krugman is just not ramashivan at all.
Aside from the ad hominems on Krugman, what, specifically, do you
disagree with in the article?
--
~ Seth Jackson

MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
Tim Norfolk
2011-12-18 04:28:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Paul Krugman bitchslaps the fuck out of Ron Paul and the exploded
theories of Austrian economists --
Paul Frugman could not bitchslap his own dick, Wilhelm.
When you win a Nobel Prize in Economics, or at least show some
indication that you know anything at all about economics, I will
consider your opinion.  Right now, you are one of the "right-wing
ideologues who persist in espousing exploded economic theories, while
ignoring empirical data showing these theories are flat out wrong."
William Coleman  (ramashiva)
But it isn't just economic theories that the US right wing espouses
against empirical evidence, is it?
Clave
2011-12-18 02:29:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Paul Krugman bitchslaps the fuck out of Ron Paul and the exploded
theories of Austrian economists --
Paul Frugman could not bitchslap his own dick, Wilhelm.
Why not just say you didn't understand the article, or better still, just
keep your yap shut for a change?

Jim
Beldin the Sorcerer
2011-12-18 04:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clave
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Paul Krugman bitchslaps the fuck out of Ron Paul and the exploded
theories of Austrian economists --
Paul Frugman could not bitchslap his own dick, Wilhelm.
Why not just say you didn't understand the article, or better still, just
keep your yap shut for a change?
The fact that an inelastic money supply is stupid doesn't change the fact
that Krugman is highly inconsistent, and therefore isn't bitchslapping
anyone.

Stumbling over the truth isn't a bitchslap
bratt
2011-12-17 20:24:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
One of the fundamental problems in this country is the existence of
right-wing ideologues who persist in espousing exploded economic
theories, while ignoring empirical data showing these theories are
flat out wrong. The most extreme example is Ron Paul and others who
don't understand that the Austrian economists have been proven wrong
about everything.
Paul Krugman bitchslaps the fuck out of Ron Paul and the exploded
theories of Austrian economists --
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/16/opinion/gop-monetary-madness.html
December 15, 2011
G.O.P. Monetary Madness
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Apparently the desperate search of Republicans for someone they can
nominate not named Willard M. Romney continues. New polls suggest that
Representative Ron Paul.
In a way, that makes sense. Mr. Romney isn’t trusted because he’s seen
as someone who cynically takes whatever positions he thinks will
advance his career — a charge that sticks because it’s true. Mr. Paul,
by contrast, has been highly consistent. I bet you won’t find video
clips from a few years back in which he says the opposite of what he’s
saying now.
Unfortunately, Mr. Paul has maintained his consistency by ignoring
reality, clinging to his ideology even as the facts have demonstrated
that ideology’s wrongness. And, even more unfortunately, Paulist
ideology now dominates a Republican Party that used to know better.
I’m not talking here about Mr. Paul’s antiwar views or his less well-
known views on civil and reproductive rights, which would horrify
liberals who think of him as a good guy. I’m talking, instead, about
his views on economics.
Mr. Paul identifies himself as a believer in “Austrian” economics — a
doctrine that it goes without saying rejects John Maynard Keynes but
is almost equally vehement in rejecting the ideas of Milton Friedman.
For Austrians see “fiat money,” money that is just printed without
being backed by gold, as the root of all economic evil, which means
that they fiercely oppose the kind of monetary expansion Friedman
claimed could have prevented the Great Depression — and which was
actually carried out by Ben Bernanke this time around.
O.K., a brief digression: the Federal Reserve doesn’t actually print
money (the Treasury does that). But the Fed does control the “monetary
base,” the sum of bank reserves and currency in circulation. So when
people talk about Mr. Bernanke printing money, what they really mean
is that the Fed expanded the monetary base.
And there has, indeed, been a huge expansion of the monetary base.
After Lehman Brothers fell, the Fed began lending large sums to banks
as well as buying a wide range of other assets, in a (successful)
attempt to stabilize financial markets, in the process adding large
amounts to bank reserves. In the fall of 2010, the Fed began another
round of purchases, in a less successful attempt to boost economic
growth. The combined effect of these actions was that the monetary
base more than tripled in size.
Austrians, and for that matter many right-leaning economists, were
sure about what would happen as a result: There would be devastating
inflation. One popular Austrian commentator who has advised Mr. Paul,
Peter Schiff, even warned (on Glenn Beck’s TV show) of the possibility
of Zimbabwe-style hyperinflation in the near future.
So here we are, three years later. How’s it going? Inflation has
fluctuated, but, at the end of the day, consumer prices have risen
just 4.5 percent, meaning an average annual inflation rate of only 1.5
percent. Who could have predicted that printing so much money would
cause so little inflation? Well, I could. And did. And so did others
who understood the Keynesian economics Mr. Paul reviles. But Mr.
Paul’s supporters continue to claim, somehow, that he has been right
about everything.
Still, while the original proponents of the doctrine won’t ever admit
that they were wrong — my experience is that nobody in the political
world ever admits to having been wrong about anything — you might
think that having been so completely off-base about something so
central to their belief system would have caused the Austrians to lose
popularity, even within the G.O.P. After all, as recently as the Bush
years, many Republicans were all for printing money when the economy
slumps. “Aggressive monetary policy can reduce the depth of a
recession,” declared the 2004 Economic Report of the President.
What has happened instead, however, is that hard-money doctrine and
paranoia about inflation have taken over the party, even as the
predicted inflation keeps failing to materialize. For example, in
February, Representative Paul Ryan, who is somewhat inexplicably
regarded as the party’s deep thinker on matters economic, harangued
Mr. Bernanke on how terrible it is to “debase” a currency and pointed
to a rise in commodity prices in late 2010 and early 2011 as evidence
that inflation was finally coming. Commodity prices have plunged since
then, but there is no sign that Mr. Ryan or anyone else is having
second thoughts.
Now, it’s still very unlikely that Ron Paul will become president.
But, as I said, his economic doctrine has, in effect, become the
official G.O.P. line, despite having been proved utterly wrong by
events. And what will happen if that doctrine actually ends up being
put into action? Great Depression, here we come.
William Coleman (ramashiva)
"Oh. My. God. Obama Clueless. We are doomed."

Paul Krugman - Thursday, February 11, 2010


------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Nov 8 2011 2:11 PM, VegasJerry wrote:
Jerry (almonst worthless) 'n Vegas

Obama, February 2009: If this economy hasn’t rebounded in three years, I’m
a one-termer

------ 
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 20:44:19 UTC
Permalink
"Oh. My. God.  Obama Clueless.  We are doomed."
Paul Krugman - Thursday, February 11, 2010
Susan, you have an amazing ability to post irrelevancies. Yes,
Krugman has been and continues to be extremely critical of Obama.
This has absolutely nothing to do with my OP.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
bratt
2011-12-17 20:59:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Susan, you have an amazing ability to post irrelevancies.
Thank you
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Nov 8 2011 2:11 PM, VegasJerry wrote:
Jerry (almonst worthless) 'n Vegas

Obama, February 2009: If this economy hasn’t rebounded in three years, I’m
a one-termer

------- 
BillB
2011-12-17 20:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Austrians, and for that matter many right-leaning economists, were
sure about what would happen as a result: There would be devastating
inflation.
Doesn't pickle proudly wave the Austrian flag? lol

"Austrian is to economics as Danielle Steel is to literature"
--BillB, August 27, 2011
da pickle
2011-12-17 20:45:36 UTC
Permalink
March 4, 2010 ... on unemployment relief.

Paul Krugman takes note in his New York Times column of what he calls
"the incredible gap that has opened up between the parties":

"Today, Democrats and Republicans live in different universes, both
intellectually and morally."

"What Democrats believe," he says "is what textbook economics says":

"But that's not how Republicans see it. Here's what Senator Jon Kyl of
Arizona, the second-ranking Republican in the Senate, had to say when
defending Mr. Bunning's position (although not joining his blockade):
unemployment relief "doesn't create new jobs. In fact, if anything,
continuing to pay people unemployment compensation is a disincentive for
them to seek new work.""

Krugman scoffs: "To me, that's a bizarre point of view--but then, I
don't live in Mr. Kyl's universe."

What does textbook economics have to say about this question? Here is a
passage from a textbook called "Macroeconomics":

"Public policy designed to help workers who lose their jobs can lead to
structural unemployment as an unintended side effect. . . . In other
countries, particularly in Europe, benefits are more generous and last
longer. The drawback to this generosity is that it reduces a worker's
incentive to quickly find a new job. Generous unemployment benefits in
some European countries are widely believed to be one of the main causes
of "Eurosclerosis," the persistent high unemployment that affects a
number of European countries."

So it turns out that what Krugman calls Sen. Kyl's "bizarre point of
view" is, in fact, textbook economics. The authors of that textbook are
Paul Krugman and Robin Wells. Miss Wells is also known as Mrs. Paul Krugman.
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 21:25:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
March 4, 2010 ... on unemployment relief.
Paul Krugman takes note in his New York Times column of what he calls
And another thing, asshole. When you copy and paste from another
source, you should cite your source, otherwise you are plagiarizing.

Looks like this was your source --

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703915204575103720332317434.html


William Coleman (ramashiva)
da pickle
2011-12-17 22:07:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
March 4, 2010 ... on unemployment relief.
Paul Krugman takes note in his New York Times column of what he calls
No comment?
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 20:58:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
March 4, 2010 ... on unemployment relief.
Paul Krugman takes note in his New York Times column of what he calls
"Today, Democrats and Republicans live in different universes, both
intellectually and morally."
"But that's not how Republicans see it. Here's what Senator Jon Kyl of
Arizona, the second-ranking Republican in the Senate, had to say when
unemployment relief "doesn't create new jobs. In fact, if anything,
continuing to pay people unemployment compensation is a disincentive for
them to seek new work.""
Krugman scoffs: "To me, that's a bizarre point of view--but then, I
don't live in Mr. Kyl's universe."
What does textbook economics have to say about this question? Here is a
"Public policy designed to help workers who lose their jobs can lead to
structural unemployment as an unintended side effect. . . . In other
countries, particularly in Europe, benefits are more generous and last
longer. The drawback to this generosity is that it reduces a worker's
incentive to quickly find a new job. Generous unemployment benefits in
some European countries are widely believed to be one of the main causes
of "Eurosclerosis," the persistent high unemployment that affects a
number of European countries."
So it turns out that what Krugman calls Sen. Kyl's "bizarre point of
view" is, in fact, textbook economics. The authors of that textbook are
Paul Krugman and Robin Wells. Miss Wells is also known as Mrs. Paul Krugman.
Listen, asshole. Don't change the subject of a thread. That is
extremely rude.

I believe if you asked Krugman what he considered a bizarre point of
view, he would point to this sentence --

"unemployment relief doesn't create new jobs."

Of course that's pure nonsense. Giving people with no income money to
spend is obviously an economic stimulus and creates jobs. Republicans
make this argument all the time -- cut peoples' taxes and put more
money in their pockets and they will spend more, stimulating the
economy and creating jobs.

I know you think you have caught Krugman contradicting himself, but
you really haven't.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
mo_ntresor
2011-12-17 21:32:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
March 4, 2010 ... on unemployment relief.
Paul Krugman takes note in his New York Times column of what he calls
"Today, Democrats and Republicans live in different universes, both
intellectually and morally."
"But that's not how Republicans see it. Here's what Senator Jon Kyl of
Arizona, the second-ranking Republican in the Senate, had to say when
unemployment relief "doesn't create new jobs. In fact, if anything,
continuing to pay people unemployment compensation is a disincentive for
them to seek new work.""
Krugman scoffs: "To me, that's a bizarre point of view--but then, I
don't live in Mr. Kyl's universe."
What does textbook economics have to say about this question? Here is a
"Public policy designed to help workers who lose their jobs can lead to
structural unemployment as an unintended side effect. . . . In other
countries, particularly in Europe, benefits are more generous and last
longer. The drawback to this generosity is that it reduces a worker's
incentive to quickly find a new job. Generous unemployment benefits in
some European countries are widely believed to be one of the main causes
of "Eurosclerosis," the persistent high unemployment that affects a
number of European countries."
So it turns out that what Krugman calls Sen. Kyl's "bizarre point of
view" is, in fact, textbook economics. The authors of that textbook are
Paul Krugman and Robin Wells. Miss Wells is also known as Mrs. Paul Krugman.
now that's a major bitch-slapping!

mo_ntresor

---- 
BillB
2011-12-17 23:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
March 4, 2010 ... on unemployment relief.
Paul Krugman takes note in his New York Times column of what he calls
"Today, Democrats and Republicans live in different universes, both
intellectually and morally."
"But that's not how Republicans see it. Here's what Senator Jon Kyl of
Arizona, the second-ranking Republican in the Senate, had to say when
unemployment relief "doesn't create new jobs. In fact, if anything,
continuing to pay people unemployment compensation is a disincentive for
them to seek new work.""
Krugman scoffs: "To me, that's a bizarre point of view--but then, I
don't live in Mr. Kyl's universe."
What does textbook economics have to say about this question? Here is a
"Public policy designed to help workers who lose their jobs can lead to
structural unemployment as an unintended side effect. . . . In other
countries, particularly in Europe, benefits are more generous and last
longer. The drawback to this generosity is that it reduces a worker's
incentive to quickly find a new job. Generous unemployment benefits in
some European countries are widely believed to be one of the main causes
of "Eurosclerosis," the persistent high unemployment that affects a
number of European countries."
So it turns out that what Krugman calls Sen. Kyl's "bizarre point of
view" is, in fact, textbook economics. The authors of that textbook are
Paul Krugman and Robin Wells. Miss Wells is also known as Mrs. Paul Krugman.
Uh, the bizarre part he's talking about is the main part of Kyl's
statement, namely that borrowed money distributed to unemployed workers
who immediately spend it somehow DOES NOT stimulate the economy. It's
almost as idiotic as the people (invariably economic illiterate
right-wingers) who say that $800 billion of extra stimulus dollars
injected into the economy somehow didn't create a single job. The CBO
has identified extended unemployment benefits as one of the most
effective short term stimulus measures, however if you go overboard with
it, you end up running into the problems described in Krugman's text.

Let me know if you need another reading comprehension lesson. I'm here
for you.
da pickle
2011-12-17 23:31:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by BillB
Post by da pickle
March 4, 2010 ... on unemployment relief.
Paul Krugman takes note in his New York Times column of what he calls
"Today, Democrats and Republicans live in different universes, both
intellectually and morally."
"But that's not how Republicans see it. Here's what Senator Jon Kyl of
Arizona, the second-ranking Republican in the Senate, had to say when
unemployment relief "doesn't create new jobs. In fact, if anything,
continuing to pay people unemployment compensation is a disincentive for
them to seek new work.""
Krugman scoffs: "To me, that's a bizarre point of view--but then, I
don't live in Mr. Kyl's universe."
What does textbook economics have to say about this question? Here is a
"Public policy designed to help workers who lose their jobs can lead to
structural unemployment as an unintended side effect. . . . In other
countries, particularly in Europe, benefits are more generous and last
longer. The drawback to this generosity is that it reduces a worker's
incentive to quickly find a new job. Generous unemployment benefits in
some European countries are widely believed to be one of the main causes
of "Eurosclerosis," the persistent high unemployment that affects a
number of European countries."
So it turns out that what Krugman calls Sen. Kyl's "bizarre point of
view" is, in fact, textbook economics. The authors of that textbook are
Paul Krugman and Robin Wells. Miss Wells is also known as Mrs. Paul Krugman.
Uh, the bizarre part he's talking about is the main part of Kyl's
statement, namely that borrowed money distributed to unemployed workers
who immediately spend it somehow DOES NOT stimulate the economy. It's
almost as idiotic as the people (invariably economic illiterate
right-wingers) who say that $800 billion of extra stimulus dollars
injected into the economy somehow didn't create a single job. The CBO
has identified extended unemployment benefits as one of the most
effective short term stimulus measures, however if you go overboard with
it, you end up running into the problems described in Krugman's text.
Let me know if you need another reading comprehension lesson. I'm here
for you.
Do post if you don't understand, Bill ... the other Bill.
Mossingen
2011-12-17 21:25:05 UTC
Permalink
"Wilhelm Kuhlmann" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:0298f0ec-92b0-4854-81a3-***@d12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
One of the fundamental problems in this country is the existence of
right-wing ideologues who persist in espousing exploded economic
theories, while ignoring empirical data showing these theories are
flat out wrong. The most extreme example is Ron Paul and others who
don't understand that the Austrian economists have been proven wrong
about everything.

Paul Krugman bitchslaps the fuck out of Ron Paul and the exploded
theories of Austrian economists --

__________________


<snip article>


I wouldn't consider that a bitchslap. Paul's mis-prediction of dire
consequences three years later doesn't really mean that his central
principle isn't sound (that the dollar should be backed by gold or something
of value).
mo_ntresor
2011-12-17 21:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
One of the fundamental problems in this country is the existence of
right-wing ideologues who persist in espousing exploded economic
theories, while ignoring empirical data showing these theories are
flat out wrong. The most extreme example is Ron Paul and others who
don't understand that the Austrian economists have been proven wrong
about everything.
Paul Krugman bitchslaps the fuck out of Ron Paul and the exploded
theories of Austrian economists --
<snip article>
I wouldn't consider that a bitchslap. Paul's mis-prediction of dire
consequences three years later doesn't really mean that his central
principle isn't sound (that the dollar should be backed by gold or something
of value).
krugman's certainty makes the perfect fodder for black swans. when
hyper-inflation hits, it cascades faster imaginable:

http://nowandfutures.com/us_weimar.html
http://nowandfutures.com/weimar.html

mo_ntresor

---- 
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 22:05:56 UTC
Permalink
I wouldn't consider that a bitchslap.  Paul's mis-prediction of dire
consequences three years later doesn't really mean that his central
principle isn't sound (that the dollar should be backed by gold or something
of value).
Sigh. You are a true believer, James. When someone makes predictions
based on an economic theory, and the predictions turn out to be false,
that economic theory is EXPLODED. Continuing to believe in exploded
economic theories is irrational.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
Mossingen
2011-12-17 22:43:49 UTC
Permalink
I wouldn't consider that a bitchslap. Paul's mis-prediction of dire
consequences three years later doesn't really mean that his central
principle isn't sound (that the dollar should be backed by gold or something
of value).
Sigh. You are a true believer, James. When someone makes predictions
based on an economic theory, and the predictions turn out to be false,
that economic theory is EXPLODED. Continuing to believe in exploded
economic theories is irrational.

________________


By "turns out to be false" you mean that they haven't materialized in the
time predicted, not that they will never materialize. The kicker is that if
they do materialize, they will have dire consequences.

In the abstract, it makes much more sense to have money backed by something
of value, rather than just keep printing paper, would you not agree?
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 23:30:51 UTC
Permalink
Sigh.  You are a true believer, James.  When someone makes predictions
based on an economic theory, and the predictions turn out to be false,
that economic theory is EXPLODED.  Continuing to believe in exploded
economic theories is irrational.
By "turns out to be false" you mean that they haven't materialized in the
time predicted, not that they will never materialize.  The kicker is that if
they do materialize, they will have dire consequences.
Well, if you are going to make that argument, then no economic theory
can ever be discredited for making failed predictions, because the
predictions might still come true some time in the future.
In the abstract, it makes much more sense to have money backed by something
of value, rather than just keep printing paper, would you not agree?
Yes, I would agree, but there are tremendous problems involved in
reconciling a gold standard with a fractional reserve banking system.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
Mossingen
2011-12-18 00:10:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Yes, I would agree, but there are tremendous problems involved in
reconciling a gold standard with a fractional reserve banking system.
I think that's the crux of it, and why I have reservations about voting for
Ron Paul. I think in theory his view is certainly the correct one; whether
markets can deal in a rational way with the uncertainty he would inject in
the world is an open question.

The irony is (for me at least) that I think Newt Gingrich probably
understands all of this better than any GOP candidate or the current
President.
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-18 00:26:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mossingen
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Yes, I would agree, but there are tremendous problems involved in
reconciling a gold standard with a fractional reserve banking system.
I think that's the crux of it, and why I have reservations about voting for
Ron Paul.  I think in theory his view is certainly the correct one;
As Yogi Berra said, "In theory there is no difference between theory
and practice. In practice, there is."
Post by Mossingen
whether
markets can deal in a rational way with the uncertainty he would inject in
the world is an open question.
As far as I am concerned, Paul's libertarian utopian views have no
relevance to the complexities of the modern world.
Post by Mossingen
The irony is (for me at least) that I think Newt Gingrich probably
understands all of this better than any GOP candidate or the current
President.
Thus my endorsement of Gingrich for President.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
da pickle
2011-12-18 16:00:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Thus my endorsement of Gingrich for President.
And yet ... if I understand correctly ... you have withdrawn your
endorsement because Newt thinks that the Executive is an "equal" member
of the three branches of government?

Newt would certainly not be the first president to assert that the
Executive is one of three equal branches.
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-18 16:53:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Thus my endorsement of Gingrich for President.
And yet ... if I understand correctly ...
You never understand correctly.
Post by da pickle
you have withdrawn your
endorsement because Newt thinks that the Executive is an "equal" member
of the three branches of government?
LOL @ "equal". In our system of checks and balances, each branch has
some ability to control and influence the other branches.

The President can veto Congressional bills and influence Congress
through the leaders of his party in Congress.

The judiciary can declare bills passed by Congress unconstitutional.

The executive nominates Supreme Court justices and can plead cases
before the Court.

Congress must approve Supreme Court nominations and can impeach SCOTUS
judges. Congress can also initiate the process of amending the
Constitution, in order to override SCOTUS decisions.

Congress can override Presidential vetos and impeach the President.

Now, if the Supreme Court can't declare a President's actions
unconstitutional, and if the President is free to ignore other SCOTUS
rulings, please explain how the Supreme Court has any control or
influence over the President.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
da pickle
2011-12-18 17:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Now, if the Supreme Court can't declare a President's actions
unconstitutional, and if the President is free to ignore other SCOTUS
rulings, please explain how the Supreme Court has any control or
influence over the President.
I am shocked, shocked I say, that you ask for such an explanation ...
which implies that you do not not understand the difference between
"declare" and "enforce" and, apparently, do not consider to ask for an
explanation as to who/which/where/why/how/what happens if the SCOTUS
acts unconstitutionally itself. Shocking ... just shocking!

You of all people know that the Supreme Court CAN declare whatever the
heck they want to declare. They even have federal marshals that can
enforce some of their declarations.

They could, if they wanted to, declare that the moon is off limits to
every human being in the universe. Might be hard to enforce that
declaration, but they could declare it.

Here is what you say someone said that Newt said (I do not claim to know
if he is quoted correctly or even interpreted correctly; you, Bill,
apparently are appalled):

"Newt Gingrich says as president he would ignore Supreme Court
decisions that conflicted with his powers as commander in chief"

Newt would be a pretty bad president if he did NOT assert and guard his
Constitutional power as commander in chief. Such things have happened
before.

Let me ask you a few questions:

Can the Supreme Court exceed their power?

Who has "standing" to *declare* that a declaration of the Supreme Court
is *unconstitutional*?

Who has the *power* to take action if the Supreme Court acts
unconstitutionally? (This last one is the easiest; it is right there in
the Constitution. Still a conundrum, of course, if THAT part has to be
interpreted ... all that circle stuff.)

[When my daughter was ready for law school, I told her two things that
she ultimately found very helpful.

"Be prepared for an enormous amount of ambiguity; you will not
*understand* how little you actually understand until after the first year."

"There are no *answers* in the law, only arguments."]
Tim Norfolk
2011-12-18 04:40:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mossingen
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Yes, I would agree, but there are tremendous problems involved in
reconciling a gold standard with a fractional reserve banking system.
I think that's the crux of it, and why I have reservations about voting for
Ron Paul.  I think in theory his view is certainly the correct one; whether
markets can deal in a rational way with the uncertainty he would inject in
the world is an open question.
The irony is (for me at least) that I think Newt Gingrich probably
understands all of this better than any GOP candidate or the current
President.
Paul and his libertarian views have many more practical problems.
Example: if we reduce environmental regulation, then the standard
libertarian view is that 'bad' companies which pollute will go out of
business. However, under that model, who pays for the clean-up?
Pepe Papon
2011-12-19 10:01:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 20:40:16 -0800 (PST), Tim Norfolk
Post by Tim Norfolk
Post by Mossingen
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Yes, I would agree, but there are tremendous problems involved in
reconciling a gold standard with a fractional reserve banking system.
I think that's the crux of it, and why I have reservations about voting for
Ron Paul.  I think in theory his view is certainly the correct one; whether
markets can deal in a rational way with the uncertainty he would inject in
the world is an open question.
The irony is (for me at least) that I think Newt Gingrich probably
understands all of this better than any GOP candidate or the current
President.
Paul and his libertarian views have many more practical problems.
Example: if we reduce environmental regulation, then the standard
libertarian view is that 'bad' companies which pollute will go out of
business. However, under that model, who pays for the clean-up?
Then again, it doesn't really matter since that model is complete
nonsense to begin with. More likely, the bad companies who pollute
will have lower costs than the good companies who clean up after
themselves. They will be able to undercut the good companies on
price and drive them out of business.

If the model were true, pollution would never have become a problem in
the first place. The polluters would have all been out of business.
Obviously, that's not reality.
--
~ Seth Jackson

MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
mo_ntresor
2011-12-19 14:05:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Norfolk
Post by Mossingen
I think that's the crux of it, and why I have reservations about voting for
Ron Paul.  I think in theory his view is certainly the correct one; whether
markets can deal in a rational way with the uncertainty he would inject in
the world is an open question.
The irony is (for me at least) that I think Newt Gingrich probably
understands all of this better than any GOP candidate or the current
President.
Paul and his libertarian views have many more practical problems.
Example: if we reduce environmental regulation, then the standard
libertarian view is that 'bad' companies which pollute will go out of
business. However, under that model, who pays for the clean-up?
what on earth are you talking about? the difference in approach is
markets and incentives rather than bureaucrats writing rules.

mo_ntresor

______________________________________________________________________ 
Beldin the Sorcerer
2011-12-18 03:51:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
I wouldn't consider that a bitchslap. Paul's mis-prediction of dire
consequences three years later doesn't really mean that his central
principle isn't sound (that the dollar should be backed by gold or something
of value).
Sigh. You are a true believer, James. When someone makes predictions
based on an economic theory, and the predictions turn out to be false,
that economic theory is EXPLODED. Continuing to believe in exploded
economic theories is irrational.
________________
By "turns out to be false" you mean that they haven't materialized in the
time predicted, not that they will never materialize. The kicker is that
if they do materialize, they will have dire consequences.
In the abstract, it makes much more sense to have money backed by
something of value, rather than just keep printing paper, would you not
agree?
Wow!
Are you seriously claiming some lump of metal has universal value?

Money is a way of tracking how society values your contribution to it.
The money supply NEEDS to be adjusted, as more people enter the society.
Money is backed by human labor. Nothing else is important.
Beldin the Sorcerer
2011-12-18 04:17:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
One of the fundamental problems in this country is the existence of
right-wing ideologues who persist in espousing exploded economic
theories, while ignoring empirical data showing these theories are
flat out wrong. The most extreme example is Ron Paul and others who
don't understand that the Austrian economists have been proven wrong
about everything.
Paul Krugman bitchslaps the fuck out of Ron Paul and the exploded
theories of Austrian economists --
__________________
<snip article>
I wouldn't consider that a bitchslap. Paul's mis-prediction of dire
consequences three years later doesn't really mean that his central
principle isn't sound (that the dollar should be backed by gold or
something of value).
All money is backed by something of value. The society that issues it. If
they begin hyper-issuing currency, of course, that value drops. Small
amounts of inflation are an economic incentive to produce.

Gold is a moronic standard. It's shiny and scarce, so it got adopted as
something of "value" but it does nothing important, except not rot.
Pepe Papon
2011-12-19 08:45:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mossingen
I wouldn't consider that a bitchslap. Paul's mis-prediction of dire
consequences three years later doesn't really mean that his central
principle isn't sound (that the dollar should be backed by gold or something
of value).
For a while, I was a believer in the gold standard, but this article
cmade me reconsider. It's a long article, and if you don't want to
read the whole thing, just skip down to the two "shipwrecked on an
island" scenarios:

http://webofdebt.wordpress.com/chapter-37-goldbugs-and-greenbackers-debate/
--
~ Seth Jackson

MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
da pickle
2011-12-17 21:25:33 UTC
Permalink
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/tag/paul-krugman/

"So, working with the notion that peak debt and peak oil possibly mean
peak civilization — and that there’s no World War II style economic kick
coming around the corner — Paul Krugman’s decided that there might just
be some logic in staging a fake alien attack on the world. You know, to
get the economy going."
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 21:34:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/tag/paul-krugman/
"So, working with the notion that peak debt and peak oil possibly mean
peak civilization and that there s no World War II style economic kick
coming around the corner Paul Krugman s decided that there might just
be some logic in staging a fake alien attack on the world. You know, to
get the economy going."
I see all you've got are ad hominem attacks on Krugman. You obviously
have no answer to his critique of Austrian economics, and you
obviously have no answer to this question --

WHERE IS THE INFLATION???


William Coleman (ramashiva)
mo_ntresor
2011-12-17 21:42:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by da pickle
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/tag/paul-krugman/
"So, working with the notion that peak debt and peak oil possibly mean
peak civilization and that there s no World War II style economic kick
coming around the corner Paul Krugman s decided that there might just
be some logic in staging a fake alien attack on the world. You know, to
get the economy going."
I see all you've got are ad hominem attacks on Krugman. You obviously
have no answer to his critique of Austrian economics, and you
obviously have no answer to this question --
WHERE IS THE INFLATION???
we've magically eliminated the possibility of losses: you print and
nobody's ever the wiser!

mo_ntresor

________________________________________________________________________ 
da pickle
2011-12-17 22:07:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/tag/paul-krugman/
"So, working with the notion that peak debt and peak oil possibly mean
peak civilization and that there s no World War II style economic kick
coming around the corner Paul Krugman s decided that there might just
be some logic in staging a fake alien attack on the world. You know, to
get the economy going."
Still no comment?
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 22:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
Still no comment?
My comment is that you are engaging in ad hominem attacks, rather than
addressing the substance of Krugman's column.

In case you aren't aware, ad hominem arguments are logical fallacies.

Why don't you stop trying to change the subject and address the
substance of Krugman's column?


William Coleman (ramashiva)
Tim Norfolk
2011-12-18 04:30:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/tag/paul-krugman/
"So, working with the notion that peak debt and peak oil possibly mean
peak civilization and that there s no World War II style economic kick
coming around the corner Paul Krugman s decided that there might just
be some logic in staging a fake alien attack on the world. You know, to
get the economy going."
I see all you've got are ad hominem attacks on Krugman.  You obviously
have no answer to his critique of Austrian economics, and you
obviously have no answer to this question --
WHERE IS THE INFLATION???
William Coleman  (ramashiva)
There hasn't been huge inflation because the people who get most of
the money can't spend enough of it.
ChrisRobin
2011-12-18 22:37:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by da pickle
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/tag/paul-krugman/
"So, working with the notion that peak debt and peak oil possibly mean
peak civilization and that there s no World War II style economic kick
coming around the corner Paul Krugman s decided that there might just
be some logic in staging a fake alien attack on the world. You know, to
get the economy going."
I see all you've got are ad hominem attacks on Krugman. You obviously
have no answer to his critique of Austrian economics, and you
obviously have no answer to this question --
WHERE IS THE INFLATION???
Well, perhaps we should take a look at the data being used to back
Krugman's argument – government-jiggered figures, or older, more accurate
methodologies:

"In general terms, methodological shifts in government reporting have
depressed reported inflation, moving the concept of the CPI away from
being a measure of the cost of living needed to maintain a constant
standard of living."

http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts

Using these data sets and methodologies, in April CNBC reported that the
"actual" inflation rate is closer to 10%:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/42551209/Inflation_Actually_Near_10_Using_Older_Measure

So there's your inflation – it's being covered up with laughably
inaccurate statistics and peddled to the masses by intellectually bankrupt
political hacks like Paul Krugmelon.

Note this paragraph from that same article:

"Still, going by recent strong comments from Federal Reserve officials,
even members of the central bank must believe inflation is being
underreported. Dallas Federal Reserve President Richard Fisher said in a
speech last week that the central bank was reaching a 'tipping point' as
far as changing its policy so it can react to inflation."

------ 
BillB
2011-12-18 22:47:27 UTC
Permalink
So there's your inflation – it's being covered up with laughably
inaccurate statistics and peddled to the masses by intellectually bankrupt
political hacks like Paul Krugmelon.
Is this "shadow statistics" person the same guy who had you convinced
that economy was going to collapse in August?

Inflation is nowhere near 10 percent. I already walked you through the
simple arithmetic that proves that claim patently and laughably false. I
guess I was wasting my time, again.
ChrisRobin
2011-12-19 20:09:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by BillB
Post by ChrisRobin
So there's your inflation – it's being covered up with laughably
inaccurate statistics and peddled to the masses by intellectually bankrupt
political hacks like Paul Krugmelon.
Is this "shadow statistics" person the same guy who had you convinced
that economy was going to collapse in August?
No.
Post by BillB
Inflation is nowhere near 10 percent. I already walked you through the
simple arithmetic that proves that claim patently and laughably false. I
guess I was wasting my time, again.
Here's the SGS primer on CPI manipulation from 2006:

http://www.shadowstats.com/article/consumer_price_index

______________________________________________________________________ 
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-18 23:36:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by ChrisRobin
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
WHERE IS THE INFLATION???
Well, perhaps we should take a look at the data being used to back
Krugman's argument – government-jiggered figures, or older, more accurate
Oh, go fuck yourself and your "government-jiggered figures". What the
fuck is wrong with you???

Everything is not a god damned government conspiracy to hide the
truth. Who says the older methodologies are more accurate,
numbnuts??? Did you read that in Rolling Stone or at Zero Hedge???

Stop reading bullshit from whacked out nutcase conspiracy theorists
like yourself, and start reading what the economists and statisticians
at the Bureau of Labor Statistics have to say --

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/08/art1full.pdf

The following section starts at page 14 of the PDF document. To view
the referenced Table 1, you will have to view page 16 of the PDF
document.

Does the CPI understate inflation?

Up to now, this article has addressed each of the major recent
criticisms of the CPI and has argued that those criticisms are based
on misunderstandings of the methods used to construct the index. Each
of the improvements made to the CPI over the years is based on sound
economic theory and years of research by academicians and BLS
economists. The methods continue to be reviewed by outside commissions
and advisory panels, and they are widely used by statistical agencies
of other nations.

This section examines the large quantitative impacts that some writers
have attributed to the changes in CPI methodology that have been
adopted over the years. One widely cited alternative index is based on
an estimate that changes to the CPI since 1983 have lowered its growth
rate by at least 7 percentage points per year. The use of the
geometric mean alone is stated to have lowered the CPI growth rate by
3 percentage points, and other BLS changes, such as the use of hedonic
models and OER, supposedly have lowered the growth rate by an
additional 4 percentage points.

Each of these estimates of the impact of BLS changes is inconsistent
with the empirical evidence. As noted earlier, the BLS has computed
indexes showing that the use of the geometric mean formula has reduced
the growth rate of the geometric mean of the CPI by only -0.28
percentage point per year, not 3 percentage points. Also discussed
earlier, BLS analyses have shown that if the implementation of hedonic
adjustment models since 1999 has had any net downward effect, it is
very small. Hedonic adjustment models implemented subsequent to 1983,
but prior to 1999, have almost certainly had an upward effect. Among
the methodological changes examined in this article, that leaves only
the shift to rental equivalence, and it is entirely implausible that
its impact could be as large as 4 percentage points per year. Earlier,
it was shown that from 1983 to 2007 the CPI for OER rose faster than
an alternative index that, like the pre–1983 BLS homeownership index,
is based on both house prices and interest rates. Another piece of
evidence comes from an analysis published in the Monthly Labor Review
in 1999 in which BLS economists Kenneth J. Stewart and Stephen Reed
compared the historical published CPI-U with an index created in
accordance with current BLS methodologies. For the years 1978–82, a
period that witnessed very rapid increases in both house prices and
interest rates, Stewart and Reed estimated that the use of rental
equivalence would have had an average annual impact on the CPI-U of
only –0.86 percentage point. Moreover, with house prices now declining
in many parts of the country, one would expect that if the BLS were
using the pre-1983 homeownership method, it would yield a lower, not
higher, current measure of shelter inflation.

Another way of evaluating the purported 7-percent difference is by
comparing it with other information. If the CPI were understated by 7
percentage points annually, then, from April 1998 to April 2008,
prices would have risen by 155 percent, not 32 percent as reported by
the CPI-U. Table 1 shows that a 7-percent difference implies
unrealistic changes in price and income. First, the table presents
examples of average prices published by the BLS from each of the six
CPI grocery store food groups, along with four energy series. For
example, the average price of a gallon of whole milk was $2.67 in
April 1998 and $3.80 in April 2008. If the price had increased by 155
percent over that period, it would now be $6.81 per gallon. Similarly,
if the average price of 2 liters of nondiet cola had increased by 155
percent over those 10 years, it would now be $2.72, more than twice as
high as the actual April 2008 average price of $1.33. Of the 10
average prices listed in table 1, only two—gasoline and fuel oil—
increased by such a large percentage.

Unfortunately, similar price comparisons cannot be made in other
sectors, because the BLS publishes average price levels only for food
and energy. Nevertheless, while no one would claim that all consumer
goods and services increased by 155 percent between 1998 and 2008, the
validity of the purported 7-percent difference is called into question
by the fact that most prices actually rose by much less than 155
percent, even within the food and energy components, in regard to
which inflation recently has been a major public concern.

Table 1 also examines the growth rate of two measures of homeowner
costs: the NAR measures of median single-family house prices and the
monthly principal and interest payment on the median house. The table
shows that both measures rose by much less than 155 percent. That is,
although some have cited the fact that the CPI does not reflect
rapidly rising house prices as a major flaw in CPI methodology, the
alternative index for goods and services as a whole rises much faster
than the NAR measures of both house prices and mortgage cost.

Finally, table 1 presents two measures of real, inflation-adjusted
incomes in the United States: the BLS measure of real average weekly
earnings of production and nonsupervisory workers, and the BEA measure
of real per-capita personal disposable income. The last column shows
the hypothetical effect of deflating that income by 155 percent. The
implied result is an extremely severe decline in real income between
1998 and 2008. For example, one would conclude that real per-capita
personal disposable income declined by more than 40 percent over the
10 years examined. This is an entirely unrealistic conclusion; by
comparison, the BEA reports that real per-capita personal disposable
income declined by just 26 percent during the Great Depression.

IT IS HOPED THAT THIS ARTICLE HAS PUT TO REST some of the
misconceptions and myths about the CPI. It is a myth that the BLS
reduced the growth rate of the CPI by assuming that hamburger is
substituted for steak. It is a myth that the use of hedonic quality
adjustment has substantially reduced the growth rate of the CPI. It is
a myth that the 1983 adoption of owner’s equivalent rent
systematically reduced the growth rate of the CPI shelter index.
Finally, it is a myth that Social Security payments are updated by a
CPI that does not include food or energy.
A number of other points also can be made. First, the sizes and
effects of the changes implemented by the BLS have been overestimated
by critics. The introduction of the geometric mean formula to account
for product substitution has decreased the rate of change of the CPI
by less than 0.3 percentage point annually, not by 3 percentage points
annually as some have claimed. In the case of owner’s equivalent rent,
it is not at all clear that the long-run impact has even been in a
downward direction. Hedonic quality adjustments introduced in the last
10 years have had a very small impact on the all-items CPI.

Second, the changes implemented by the BLS that some critics construe
to be a response to short-term political pressure were, in fact, the
result of analysis and recommendations made over a period of decades,
and those changes are consistent with international standards for
statistics. The problem of how to adjust for quality differences when
new goods appear was recognized by the BLS Commissioner when consumer
price indexes were first published. The solution known as hedonic
estimation was developed no later than 1939, and its use in the CPI
was recommended in 1961. Five of the G-7 nations use hedonic
estimation, as do at least 11 of the OECD nations. The BLS approach is
consistent with guidelines developed by the OECD. The geometric mean
price index was developed in 1865, was recommended by the
International Labor Office, and was being evaluated for use in the
U.S. CPI well before the Boskin Commission was formed. It is widely
used by Eurostat and OECD countries. The use of owner’s equivalent
rent was recommended in 1961 by the Stigler Committee and later by the
General Accounting Office; according to the OECD, owner’s equivalent
rent is the most common method that its member countries use to
measure the cost of shelter for homeowners.

Third, the BLS routinely publishes details about its methods and about
changes to those methods. In the BLS Handbook of Methods, the chapter
on the CPI contains information on the index’s methods of
construction, as well as on its history, uses, limitations, precision,
and other topics. In addition, the CPI Web site includes a wide
variety of specialized information, such as articles on hedonic
regression models in apparel, guidelines for new-vehicle quality
adjustment, fact sheets on the methods used to generate selected CPI
components, details about the use of intervention analysis in seasonal
adjustment, and a comparison of the CPI and the PCE price index. The
BLS also maintains information offices at both its national and
regional offices in order to respond to questions from the public.

Finally, the CPI is not, and can never be, a perfect index. Moreover,
all of the topics raised in the recent commentary on the CPI—including
the methods for dealing with consumer substitution, quality change,
and owner-occupied housing—are critically important to the accuracy of
the index. The very existence of the CPI methodological changes
discussed here attests to the fact that the BLS must always be working
to enhance the index. The BLS benefits from the work of academics and
others who identify ways in which the CPI can be improved. The BLS
also benefits when the public understands how the CPI is constructed
and what the index’s strengths and limitations are. It is hoped that
this article will help increase that public understanding.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
ChrisRobin
2011-12-19 20:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by ChrisRobin
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
WHERE IS THE INFLATION???
Well, perhaps we should take a look at the data being used to back
Krugman's argument – government-jiggered figures, or older, more accurate
Oh, go fuck yourself and your "government-jiggered figures". What the
fuck is wrong with you???
Nothing's wrong with me, I just prefer to deal in reality. Is the
hostility really necessary?
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Everything is not a god damned government conspiracy to hide the
truth. Who says the older methodologies are more accurate,
numbnuts??? Did you read that in Rolling Stone or at Zero Hedge???
To suggest that the government massages statistics to hide our annually
declining purchasing power is hardly controversial or conspiratorial. It's
a simple political reality that should be obvious to any semi-sentient
person. Here's a brief primer on the primary manipulations of employment
and inflation statistics by previous Presidential administrations (keep in
mind that this article was written in 2004):

http://www.shadowstats.com/article/primers_intro

Note the brief section on the changes during the Clinton years:

"As former Labor Secretary Bob Reich explained in his memoirs, the Clinton
administration had found in its public polling that if the government
inflated economic reporting, enough people would believe it to swing a
close election. Accordingly, whatever integrity had survived in the
economic reporting system disappeared during the Clinton years.
Unemployment was redefined to eliminate five million discouraged workers
and to lower the unemployment rate; methodologies were changed to reduce
poverty reporting, to reduce reported CPI inflation, to inflate reported
GDP growth, among others."

Note some of the previous examples of politicized economic data mentioned
in the article, too – particularly Nixon's war with the BLS over
unemployment data and Lyndon Johnson's heavy-handed jiggering of GNP.
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Stop reading bullshit from whacked out nutcase conspiracy theorists
like yourself, and start reading what the economists and statisticians
at the Bureau of Labor Statistics have to say --
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/08/art1full.pdf
The BLS defends their own methodology – imagine that!

Here's the Shadow Stats primer on CPI manipulation over the years. A must
read:

http://www.shadowstats.com/article/consumer_price_index

________________________________________________________________________ 
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-19 20:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by ChrisRobin
Post by ChrisRobin
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
WHERE IS THE INFLATION???
Well, perhaps we should take a look at the data being used to back
Krugman's argument – government-jiggered figures, or older, more accurate
Oh, go fuck yourself and your "government-jiggered figures".  What the
fuck is wrong with you???
Nothing's wrong with me, I just prefer to deal in reality.
No, you prefer to believe debunked delusional bullshit, while ignoring
all evidence that everything you believe is wrong.
Post by ChrisRobin
Is the hostility really necessary?
I don't like whacked out nutcases like you cluttering up my thread.
Post by ChrisRobin
Everything is not a god damned government conspiracy to hide the
truth.  Who says the older methodologies are more accurate,
numbnuts???  Did you read that in Rolling Stone or at Zero Hedge???
To suggest that the government massages statistics to hide our annually
declining purchasing power is hardly controversial or conspiratorial.
Of course it is. It's the purest nonsense easily rebutted with actual
facts.
Post by ChrisRobin
It's a simple political reality that should be obvious to any semi-sentient person.
NO IT IS NOT.
Post by ChrisRobin
Here's a brief primer on the primary manipulations of employment
and inflation statistics by previous Presidential administrations (keep in
http://www.shadowstats.com/article/primers_intro
Chris, seriously. You are quoting easily refuted bullshit from
whacked out nutcases. Get a fucking grip.
Post by ChrisRobin
"As former Labor Secretary Bob Reich explained in his memoirs, the Clinton
administration had found in its public polling that if the government
inflated economic reporting, enough people would believe it to swing a
close election. Accordingly, whatever integrity had survived in the
economic reporting system disappeared during the Clinton years.
Unemployment was redefined to eliminate five million discouraged workers
and to lower the unemployment rate; methodologies were changed to reduce
poverty reporting, to reduce reported CPI inflation, to inflate reported
GDP growth, among others."
Note some of the previous examples of politicized economic data mentioned
in the article, too – particularly Nixon's war with the BLS over
unemployment data and Lyndon Johnson's heavy-handed jiggering of GNP.
Stop reading bullshit from whacked out nutcase conspiracy theorists
like yourself, and start reading what the economists and statisticians
at the Bureau of Labor Statistics have to say --
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/08/art1full.pdf
The BLS defends their own methodology – imagine that!
If you actually read the article, you would know that your sources of
information are pure bullshit.
Post by ChrisRobin
Here's the Shadow Stats primer on CPI manipulation over the years. A must
It's only a must read for students of the psychopathology of delusion.

Read the fucking BLS article. You are quoting debunked nonsense.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
Robert Ladd
2011-12-20 02:06:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by ChrisRobin
Post by ChrisRobin
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
WHERE IS THE INFLATION???
Well, perhaps we should take a look at the data being used to back
Krugman's argument – government-jiggered figures, or older, more accurate
Oh, go fuck yourself and your "government-jiggered figures". What the
fuck is wrong with you???
Nothing's wrong with me, I just prefer to deal in reality.
No, you prefer to believe debunked delusional bullshit, while ignoring
all evidence that everything you believe is wrong.
Post by ChrisRobin
Is the hostility really necessary?
I don't like whacked out nutcases like you cluttering up my thread.

***************************************************
It's your thread? I believe that when you submitted it to Usenet it is in
the public domain. We all can clutter it up, although you have every right
to complain about the cluttering.
***************************************************
Post by ChrisRobin
Everything is not a god damned government conspiracy to hide the
truth. Who says the older methodologies are more accurate,
numbnuts??? Did you read that in Rolling Stone or at Zero Hedge???
To suggest that the government massages statistics to hide our annually
declining purchasing power is hardly controversial or conspiratorial.
Of course it is. It's the purest nonsense easily rebutted with actual
facts.
*************************************************
There are three types of lies -- lies, damned lies, and statistics --
variously attributed to Benjamin Disraeli or Mark Twain, but more likely
created or stolen by Leonard H. Courtney. I believe that government
statistics quite often falls into any or all of those categories. -- Robert
Ladd 12/19/2011
************************************************
Post by ChrisRobin
It's a simple political reality that should be obvious to any
semi-sentient person.
NO IT IS NOT.
**********************************************
Any administration, while in office, has a desire to paint the view of their
actions as valid, and thus will *encourage* government statisticians to
create views using the areas of economics that support those views. This is
possible because economics, especially modern day economics which is built
upon fractional reserve banking, relies so much on consumer confidence to
value money that it is an art masquerading as a science. -- Robert Ladd
12/19/2011 :)

Robert Ladd
**********************************************
Post by ChrisRobin
Here's a brief primer on the primary manipulations of employment
and inflation statistics by previous Presidential administrations (keep in
http://www.shadowstats.com/article/primers_intro
Chris, seriously. You are quoting easily refuted bullshit from
whacked out nutcases. Get a fucking grip.
Post by ChrisRobin
"As former Labor Secretary Bob Reich explained in his memoirs, the Clinton
administration had found in its public polling that if the government
inflated economic reporting, enough people would believe it to swing a
close election. Accordingly, whatever integrity had survived in the
economic reporting system disappeared during the Clinton years.
Unemployment was redefined to eliminate five million discouraged workers
and to lower the unemployment rate; methodologies were changed to reduce
poverty reporting, to reduce reported CPI inflation, to inflate reported
GDP growth, among others."
Note some of the previous examples of politicized economic data mentioned
in the article, too – particularly Nixon's war with the BLS over
unemployment data and Lyndon Johnson's heavy-handed jiggering of GNP.
Stop reading bullshit from whacked out nutcase conspiracy theorists
like yourself, and start reading what the economists and statisticians
at the Bureau of Labor Statistics have to say --
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/08/art1full.pdf
The BLS defends their own methodology – imagine that!
If you actually read the article, you would know that your sources of
information are pure bullshit.
Post by ChrisRobin
Here's the Shadow Stats primer on CPI manipulation over the years. A must
It's only a must read for students of the psychopathology of delusion.

Read the fucking BLS article. You are quoting debunked nonsense.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
Pepe Papon
2011-12-20 02:33:53 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:05:26 -0800, "ChrisRobin"
Post by ChrisRobin
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/08/art1full.pdf
The BLS defends their own methodology – imagine that!
Here's the Shadow Stats primer on CPI manipulation over the years. A must
http://www.shadowstats.com/article/consumer_price_index
Your source makes a lot of assertions, but provides no cites in
support. Why would one choose to believe this account rather than
that of the BLS, who actually computes the CPI?
--
~ Seth Jackson

MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-20 02:36:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pepe Papon
On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:05:26 -0800, "ChrisRobin"
Post by ChrisRobin
Here's the Shadow Stats primer on CPI manipulation over the years. A must
http://www.shadowstats.com/article/consumer_price_index
Your source makes a lot of assertions, but provides no cites in
support.   Why would one choose to believe this account rather than
that of the BLS, who actually computes the CPI?
The BLS article I quoted and linked debunks everything on the
shadowstats link with cold hard facts. Of course, Chris will never
read it.


William Coleman (ramashiva)

Pepe Papon
2011-12-19 09:46:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 14:37:08 -0800, "ChrisRobin"
Post by ChrisRobin
"In general terms, methodological shifts in government reporting have
depressed reported inflation, moving the concept of the CPI away from
being a measure of the cost of living needed to maintain a constant
standard of living."
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts
Using these data sets and methodologies, in April CNBC reported that the
The government disputes this. Is there a way to prove that SGS is
correct and the government is lying?

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpiqa.htm#Question_3
--
~ Seth Jackson

MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
da pickle
2011-12-17 21:41:05 UTC
Permalink
Partisanism

The Economist cites critics of Krugman stating that "his relentless
partisanship is getting in the way of his argument". In addition, a
website (titled "Lying in Ponds") that tracks partisanship among public
intellectuals rated Krugman second in the overall partisan slant of his
columns, behind only Ann Coulter.[26] As Richard Posner and economist
Mark J. Perry note, the site, which uses careful statistical analysis to
make assessments political partisanship, has ranked Paul Krugman the
number 1 or number 2 most biased every single year from 2002-2008.[27][28]

The Economist magazine supported the finding, noting the vast majority
of Krugman's columns feature attacks on Republicans and almost none
criticize Democrats, making him "a sort of ivory-tower folk-hero of the
American left—a thinking person's Michael Moore" and that "a glance
through his past columns reveals a growing tendency to attribute all the
world's ills to George Bush."[26] And speaking on Krugman's recent
"prophecy of doom" regarding the 2010 election, the magazine calls it a
"baseless partisan freakout".[29]

A study published in the peer-reviewed Econ Journal Watch examined
statements from 17 economists from 1981 through 2009, and gauged the
consistency of their stances on deficit spending and reduction during
Republican and Democratic administrations. According to the study,
Krugman was the only economist of the 17 to "significantly" change his
stance on the federal budget deficit for partisan reasons.[30]

This finding of inconsistency was supported when The Wall Street Journal
(WSJ) showed that Krugman contradicted his own findings in order to
criticize Republican policy. When Republican Senator Jon Kyl stated that
unemployment relief doesn't create new jobs and in fact is a
disincentive for unemployed individuals to seek new work, Krugman called
it a "bizarre point of view" and stated that "What Democrats believe is
what textbook economics says [...] But that's not how Republicans see
it". James Taranto of the WSJ reproduced a passage from a textbook
called Macroeconomics which states: "The drawback to [unemployment
benefits] is that it reduces a worker's incentive to quickly find a new
job." The authors of the textbook are Paul Krugman and his wife.[31]
This led John Hinderaker of the conservative Claremont Institute to
proclaim: "only the existence of Frank Rich prevents Krugman from being
the world’s worst columnist."[32]

In 2008, economist Peter Boettke noted: "[Over the years] Krugman's work
devolved from science to ideology and finally to political partisanship"
and that Krugman "has used his platform as an economist and as a
columnist for the New York Times for his Democratic partisanship
purposes."[33]

Author and federal appeals court judge Richard Posner called Krugman "an
unabashed Democratic partisan who often goes overboard in his hatred of
the Republians." [sic][27]

Economist Donald Boudreaux has stated that Krugman does "a disservice to
non-'liberal' scholars as well as to scholarship generally" by asserting
that serious thinking is done only by Krugman himself and other
liberals.[34]

Liberal journalists also openly point out Krugman's obvious political
bias: New York Magazine called Krugman "the leading exponent of a kind
of liberal purism" that he is "not altogether comfortable with, but it
is [a role] he has sought."[35] Liberal journalist and author Michael
Tomasky in The New York Review of Books stated "Many liberals would name
Paul Krugman of The New York Times as perhaps the most consistent and
courageous—and unapologetic—liberal partisan in American journalism."[36]

Liberal historian Michael Kazin has stated Krugman’s account of the
right succumbed to the Marxist flaw of false consciousness: "Unlike what
Krugman says, conservatism is not some kind of smoke screen for another
agenda."[35]

26.↑ 26.0 26.1 26.2 26.3 "The one-handed economist", The Economist,
2003-11-13, retrieved 2011-08-10
27.↑ 27.0 27.1 Posner, Richard (2009-06-03), "The Good Paul Krugman
and the Bad Paul Krugman", The Atlantic, retrieved 2011-08-10
28.↑ Perry, Mark J. (2008-10-14). "Paul Krugman: #1 Most Partisan
Columnist in U.S.". Retrieved 2011-08-10.
29.↑ "Krugman's prophecy of doom", The Economist, 2010-10-29,
retrieved 2011-08-10
30.↑ Barkley, Brett (2010-05), "When the White House Changes Party, Do
Economists Change Their Tune on Budget Deficits?", Econ Journal Watch 7
(2): 119-156
31.↑ Taranto, James (2010-03-05), "Mirror, Mirror", The Wall Street
Journal, retrieved 2011-08-10
32.↑ Hinderaker, John (2010-03-06). "Krugman Vs. Krugman". Power Line.
Retrieved 2011-08-10.
33.↑ Boettke, Peter (2008-10-13). "Political Economist". Forbes.
Archived from the original on 2008-10-16. Retrieved 2011-08-10.
34.↑ Boudreaux, Don (2011-06-19), Open Letter to Paul Krugman,
retrieved 2011-08-10
35.↑ 35.0 35.1 35.2 Wallace-Wells, Benjamin (2011-04-24), "What’s Left
of the Left", New York Magazine, retrieved 2011-08-10
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 22:00:20 UTC
Permalink
On Dec 17, 1:41 pm, da pickle <***@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:

<snip still MORE ad hominem attacks on Krugman>

Wow, you have really gone on tilt. Are you ever going to address the
substance of Krugman's column, or are you just going to continue
irrelevant ad hominem attacks?


William Coleman (ramashiva)
mo_ntresor
2011-12-17 22:00:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
Partisanism
The Economist cites critics of Krugman stating that "his relentless
partisanship is getting in the way of his argument". In addition, a
website (titled "Lying in Ponds") that tracks partisanship among public
intellectuals rated Krugman second in the overall partisan slant of his
columns, behind only Ann Coulter.[26] As Richard Posner and economist
Mark J. Perry note, the site, which uses careful statistical analysis to
make assessments political partisanship, has ranked Paul Krugman the
number 1 or number 2 most biased every single year from 2002-2008.[27][28]
The Economist magazine supported the finding, noting the vast majority
of Krugman's columns feature attacks on Republicans and almost none
criticize Democrats, making him "a sort of ivory-tower folk-hero of the
American left—a thinking person's Michael Moore" and that "a glance
through his past columns reveals a growing tendency to attribute all the
world's ills to George Bush."[26] And speaking on Krugman's recent
"prophecy of doom" regarding the 2010 election, the magazine calls it a
"baseless partisan freakout".[29]
A study published in the peer-reviewed Econ Journal Watch examined
statements from 17 economists from 1981 through 2009, and gauged the
consistency of their stances on deficit spending and reduction during
Republican and Democratic administrations. According to the study,
Krugman was the only economist of the 17 to "significantly" change his
stance on the federal budget deficit for partisan reasons.[30]
This finding of inconsistency was supported when The Wall Street Journal
(WSJ) showed that Krugman contradicted his own findings in order to
criticize Republican policy. When Republican Senator Jon Kyl stated that
unemployment relief doesn't create new jobs and in fact is a
disincentive for unemployed individuals to seek new work, Krugman called
it a "bizarre point of view" and stated that "What Democrats believe is
what textbook economics says [...] But that's not how Republicans see
it". James Taranto of the WSJ reproduced a passage from a textbook
called Macroeconomics which states: "The drawback to [unemployment
benefits] is that it reduces a worker's incentive to quickly find a new
job." The authors of the textbook are Paul Krugman and his wife.[31]
This led John Hinderaker of the conservative Claremont Institute to
proclaim: "only the existence of Frank Rich prevents Krugman from being
the world’s worst columnist."[32]
In 2008, economist Peter Boettke noted: "[Over the years] Krugman's work
devolved from science to ideology and finally to political partisanship"
and that Krugman "has used his platform as an economist and as a
columnist for the New York Times for his Democratic partisanship
purposes."[33]
Author and federal appeals court judge Richard Posner called Krugman "an
unabashed Democratic partisan who often goes overboard in his hatred of
the Republians." [sic][27]
Economist Donald Boudreaux has stated that Krugman does "a disservice to
non-'liberal' scholars as well as to scholarship generally" by asserting
that serious thinking is done only by Krugman himself and other
liberals.[34]
Liberal journalists also openly point out Krugman's obvious political
bias: New York Magazine called Krugman "the leading exponent of a kind
of liberal purism" that he is "not altogether comfortable with, but it
is [a role] he has sought."[35] Liberal journalist and author Michael
Tomasky in The New York Review of Books stated "Many liberals would name
Paul Krugman of The New York Times as perhaps the most consistent and
courageous—and unapologetic—liberal partisan in American journalism."[36]
Liberal historian Michael Kazin has stated Krugman’s account of the
right succumbed to the Marxist flaw of false consciousness: "Unlike what
Krugman says, conservatism is not some kind of smoke screen for another
agenda."[35]
26.↑ 26.0 26.1 26.2 26.3 "The one-handed economist", The Economist,
2003-11-13, retrieved 2011-08-10
27.↑ 27.0 27.1 Posner, Richard (2009-06-03), "The Good Paul Krugman
and the Bad Paul Krugman", The Atlantic, retrieved 2011-08-10
28.↑ Perry, Mark J. (2008-10-14). "Paul Krugman: #1 Most Partisan
Columnist in U.S.". Retrieved 2011-08-10.
29.↑ "Krugman's prophecy of doom", The Economist, 2010-10-29,
retrieved 2011-08-10
30.↑ Barkley, Brett (2010-05), "When the White House Changes Party, Do
Economists Change Their Tune on Budget Deficits?", Econ Journal Watch 7
(2): 119-156
31.↑ Taranto, James (2010-03-05), "Mirror, Mirror", The Wall Street
Journal, retrieved 2011-08-10
32.↑ Hinderaker, John (2010-03-06). "Krugman Vs. Krugman". Power Line.
Retrieved 2011-08-10.
33.↑ Boettke, Peter (2008-10-13). "Political Economist". Forbes.
Archived from the original on 2008-10-16. Retrieved 2011-08-10.
34.↑ Boudreaux, Don (2011-06-19), Open Letter to Paul Krugman,
retrieved 2011-08-10
35.↑ 35.0 35.1 35.2 Wallace-Wells, Benjamin (2011-04-24), "What’s Left
of the Left", New York Magazine, retrieved 2011-08-10
economics isn't science, so it's the perfect field for a partisan "expert"
to feign objectivity for fawning amatures.

krugman's IS, however, an incredible writer.

mo_ntresor

----- 
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 22:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by mo_ntresor
economics isn't science, so it's the perfect field for a partisan "expert"
to feign objectivity for fawning amatures.
Of course economics is a science. It isn't an exact science like
astronomy, which can accurately predict astronomical events thousands
of years in advance. But sciences like meteorology and seismology
also lack predictive precision.

I will grant you that economics as practiced by the "economists" at
right-wing think tanks like the American Enterprise Institute isn't
science. But mainstream economists use all the recognized techniques
of the scientific method, such as data collection, hypothesis
formulation and testing, statistical analysis, and publication in
refereed journals.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
Beldin the Sorcerer
2011-12-18 03:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by mo_ntresor
economics isn't science, so it's the perfect field for a partisan "expert"
to feign objectivity for fawning amatures.
Of course economics is a science. It isn't an exact science like
astronomy, which can accurately predict astronomical events thousands
of years in advance. But sciences like meteorology and seismology
also lack predictive precision.

I will grant you that economics as practiced by the "economists" at
right-wing think tanks like the American Enterprise Institute isn't
science. But mainstream economists use all the recognized techniques
of the scientific method, such as data collection, hypothesis
formulation and testing, statistical analysis, and publication in
refereed journals.

***
Oh, for fuck's sake.
Economic theory is untestable because we don't have multiple worlds to test
different approaches against each other. Nobody can effectively discern
whether results would have been better or worse, had a different approach
been tried
da pickle
2011-12-17 22:08:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
Partisanism
The Economist cites critics of Krugman stating that "his relentless
partisanship is getting in the way of his argument". In addition, a
website (titled "Lying in Ponds") that tracks partisanship among public
intellectuals rated Krugman second in the overall partisan slant of his
columns, behind only Ann Coulter.[26] As Richard Posner and economist
Mark J. Perry note, the site, which uses careful statistical analysis to
make assessments political partisanship, has ranked Paul Krugman the
number 1 or number 2 most biased every single year from 2002-2008.[27][28]
The Economist magazine supported the finding, noting the vast majority
of Krugman's columns feature attacks on Republicans and almost none
criticize Democrats, making him "a sort of ivory-tower folk-hero of the
American left—a thinking person's Michael Moore" and that "a glance
through his past columns reveals a growing tendency to attribute all the
world's ills to George Bush."[26] And speaking on Krugman's recent
"prophecy of doom" regarding the 2010 election, the magazine calls it a
"baseless partisan freakout".[29]
A study published in the peer-reviewed Econ Journal Watch examined
statements from 17 economists from 1981 through 2009, and gauged the
consistency of their stances on deficit spending and reduction during
Republican and Democratic administrations. According to the study,
Krugman was the only economist of the 17 to "significantly" change his
stance on the federal budget deficit for partisan reasons.[30]
This finding of inconsistency was supported when The Wall Street Journal
(WSJ) showed that Krugman contradicted his own findings in order to
criticize Republican policy. When Republican Senator Jon Kyl stated that
unemployment relief doesn't create new jobs and in fact is a
disincentive for unemployed individuals to seek new work, Krugman called
it a "bizarre point of view" and stated that "What Democrats believe is
what textbook economics says [...] But that's not how Republicans see
it". James Taranto of the WSJ reproduced a passage from a textbook
called Macroeconomics which states: "The drawback to [unemployment
benefits] is that it reduces a worker's incentive to quickly find a new
job." The authors of the textbook are Paul Krugman and his wife.[31]
This led John Hinderaker of the conservative Claremont Institute to
proclaim: "only the existence of Frank Rich prevents Krugman from being
the world’s worst columnist."[32]
In 2008, economist Peter Boettke noted: "[Over the years] Krugman's work
devolved from science to ideology and finally to political partisanship"
and that Krugman "has used his platform as an economist and as a
columnist for the New York Times for his Democratic partisanship
purposes."[33]
Author and federal appeals court judge Richard Posner called Krugman "an
unabashed Democratic partisan who often goes overboard in his hatred of
the Republians." [sic][27]
Economist Donald Boudreaux has stated that Krugman does "a disservice to
non-'liberal' scholars as well as to scholarship generally" by asserting
that serious thinking is done only by Krugman himself and other
liberals.[34]
Liberal journalists also openly point out Krugman's obvious political
bias: New York Magazine called Krugman "the leading exponent of a kind
of liberal purism" that he is "not altogether comfortable with, but it
is [a role] he has sought."[35] Liberal journalist and author Michael
Tomasky in The New York Review of Books stated "Many liberals would name
Paul Krugman of The New York Times as perhaps the most consistent and
courageous—and unapologetic—liberal partisan in American journalism."[36]
Liberal historian Michael Kazin has stated Krugman’s account of the
right succumbed to the Marxist flaw of false consciousness: "Unlike what
Krugman says, conservatism is not some kind of smoke screen for another
agenda."[35]
26.↑ 26.0 26.1 26.2 26.3 "The one-handed economist", The Economist,
2003-11-13, retrieved 2011-08-10
27.↑ 27.0 27.1 Posner, Richard (2009-06-03), "The Good Paul Krugman and
the Bad Paul Krugman", The Atlantic, retrieved 2011-08-10
28.↑ Perry, Mark J. (2008-10-14). "Paul Krugman: #1 Most Partisan
Columnist in U.S.". Retrieved 2011-08-10.
29.↑ "Krugman's prophecy of doom", The Economist, 2010-10-29, retrieved
2011-08-10
30.↑ Barkley, Brett (2010-05), "When the White House Changes Party, Do
Economists Change Their Tune on Budget Deficits?", Econ Journal Watch 7
(2): 119-156
31.↑ Taranto, James (2010-03-05), "Mirror, Mirror", The Wall Street
Journal, retrieved 2011-08-10
32.↑ Hinderaker, John (2010-03-06). "Krugman Vs. Krugman". Power Line.
Retrieved 2011-08-10.
33.↑ Boettke, Peter (2008-10-13). "Political Economist". Forbes.
Archived from the original on 2008-10-16. Retrieved 2011-08-10.
34.↑ Boudreaux, Don (2011-06-19), Open Letter to Paul Krugman, retrieved
2011-08-10
35.↑ 35.0 35.1 35.2 Wallace-Wells, Benjamin (2011-04-24), "What’s Left
of the Left", New York Magazine, retrieved 2011-08-10
Still no comment, Bill?
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 22:16:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
Still no comment, Bill?
My comment is that you are engaging in ad hominem attacks, rather than
addressing the substance of Krugman's column.

In case you aren't aware, ad hominem arguments are logical fallacies.

Why don't you stop trying to change the subject and address the
substance of Krugman's column?


William Coleman (ramashiva)
Pepe Papon
2011-12-19 08:49:05 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 15:41:05 -0600, da pickle
Post by da pickle
Partisanism
The Economist cites critics of Krugman stating that "his relentless
partisanship is getting in the way of his argument". In addition, a
website (titled "Lying in Ponds") that tracks partisanship among public
intellectuals rated Krugman second in the overall partisan slant of his
columns, behind only Ann Coulter.[26] As Richard Posner and economist
Mark J. Perry note, the site, which uses careful statistical analysis to
make assessments political partisanship, has ranked Paul Krugman the
number 1 or number 2 most biased every single year from 2002-2008.[27][28]
http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/adhom/adhom.html
--
~ Seth Jackson

MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
da pickle
2011-12-17 21:48:11 UTC
Permalink
Contradictions

Krugman has garnered a reputation for contradicting himself on many
occasions. When documenting such inconsistencies several writers have
made references to such an occurrence being commonplace: "It's not
newsworthy when Paul Krugman contradicts himself."[37] "Not that you
needed any more evidence that New York Times columnist Paul Krugman is a
flip-flopping charlatan..."[38] "This just in: New York Times columnist
Paul Krugman is a raging hypocrite. You'll be shocked to find out, I'm
sure."[39]

In addition to the instance reported in the WSJ (see above), a single
article published in the conservative online magazine The American
Thinker documents Krugman making contradictory statements in a wide
variety of topics. He is documented as stating that when deficits are
high interest rates are low, and when governments run up a deficit,
interest rates rise. He argued that higher national debt and spending
were bad for people early in their careers, as they would have to pay
for it later in life, and nearly twenty-five years later, he argues that
the national debt is not a problem, as it never needs to be paid off.
Krugman argued it is not the debt that matters, but rather the
debt-to-GDP ratio. But in an open letter to Alan Greenspan he asserted,
"...you obviously realize that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is a highly
misleading number." He has argued that Social Security is sustainable
and unsustainable, opposed government-run health care before supporting
government-run health care, and opposed the bailout of Fannie Mae before
congratulating the government for the bailout of Fannie Mae.[40]

Krugman has stated labor unions and higher wages cause unemployment, as
well as stating labor unions create a stable middle class, and lower
wages have a contractionary effect on the economy (which is
characterized in part by unemployment). He has argued that governments
do not cause recessions and are not responsible for business cycles, but
he also blames the Bush administration for the current recession.
Krugman claimed that nothing the government has done has had an impact
on the economy, and states that government actions are like using a
water pistol to shoot an elephant -- but he also claims that "big
government" saved the economy. He declared that workers' fears of losing
jobs to workers in China and India due to globalization aren't
irrational, when he earlier stated that those who blamed the global
economy for the loss of jobs were "silly."[40]

Conservative blogger and political commentator Michelle Malkin noted
that in April 2011, Krugman assailed entitlement reform advocates,
lamenting that "the fervor with which Washington types call for raising
eligibility ages is a ‘tell’: it shows how disconnected they are from
the way the other half lives (and dies)" and called life expectancy
"more and more a class-related issue." But in 1996 he called similar
proposals (such as raising the age of eligibility for federal
entitlements) "sensible".[38]

In 2007, Krugman berated then-Senator Barack Obama for worrying about
the future of Social Security, stating Obama had been misled by "decades
of scare-mongering about Social Security’s future from conservative
ideologues." Economist and former Chairman of the Council of Economic
Advisors Greg Mankiw responded by stating that "Paul's interpretation
seems to be based on either a faulty memory or an especially inclusive
definition of what constitutes a conservative ideologue", pointing out
that not only did Democratic President Bill Clinton voice similar
concerns, but that he was under advisement of well-known economist and
non-conservative Edward Gramlich, whom Krugman had in the past praised
as being particularly prescient.[41] In addition, less than a month
prior, Mankiw had previously pointed out Krugman's contradiction on
Social Security when he quoted from an interview in which Krugman stated
it is "one of the best" federal government programs in terms of funding,
and that it's not for certain the program has a problem. However, as
Mankiw shows, Krugman himself stated ten years earlier that crisis
loomed ahead when the baby boomers would start to retire around year
2010.[42]

In an open letter to The New York Times Donald Boudreaux pointed out
that Krugman suggested trade with low-wage countries poses real problems
for high-wage America, despite years earlier penning a paper stating
that wages are determined by worker productivity.[43]

Columnist Tom Bevan asked in 2009 how Krugman reconciles a call for
economic stimulus while at the same time arguing that additional
environmental regulations and taxes are needed to avert the "utter
catastrophe", outlining that stricter environmental policies such as
carbon taxes, capping emissions, and additional regulations come at a
cost to the economy.[44]

Economist Robert Murphy has documented so many contradictions made by
Krugman that he has coined the term "Krugman Kontradiction" or "Klassic
Krugman".[37] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [50]


37.↑ 37.0 37.1 Murphy, Robert P. (2011-03-03). "Caught: Krugman's
Shifting Arguments". Ludwig von Mises Institute. Retrieved 2011-08-10.
38.↑ 38.0 38.1 Malkin, Michelle (2011-04-26). "Paul Krugman: For
entitlement reform before he was against it". Retrieved 2011-08-10.
39.↑ Markay, Lachlan (2011-04-26), "Paul Krugman Favored Raising
Retirement Age Until GOP Proposed It", NewsBusters, retrieved 2011-08-10
40.↑ 40.0 40.1 Kumar, Arvind (2010-06-23), "Paul Krugman, the
Self-Contradicting Economist", The American Thinker, archived from the
original on 2011-07-21, retrieved 2011-08-10
41.↑ Mankiw, Greg (2007-11-16). "In Search of Ideologues". Retrieved
2011-08-10.
42.↑ Mankiw, Greg (2007-10-28). "Krugman vs Obama". Retrieved 2011-08-10.
43.↑ Boudreaux, Donald J. (2008-01-05). "Strange Case of Dr. K and Mr.
K". Retrieved 2011-08-10.
44.↑ Bevan, Tom (2009-07-13), "Krugman's Contradiction",
RealClearPolitics, retrieved 2011-08-10
45.↑ Murphy, Robert P. (2010-06-10). "A Krugman Kontradiction?".
Retrieved 2011-08-10.
46.↑ Murphy, Robert P. (2010-11-23). "Yet Another Krugman
Kontradiction". Retrieved 2011-08-10.
47.↑ Murphy, Robert P. (2011-03-30). "Yet Another Krugman
Kontradiction?". Retrieved 2011-08-10.
48.↑ Murphy, Robert P. (2011-05-19). "Klassic Krugman Kontradiction".
Retrieved 2011-08-10.
49.↑ Murphy, Robert P. (2010-07-07). "Another Krugman Kontradiction?".
Retrieved 2011-08-10.
50.↑ 50.0 50.1 Murphy, Robert P. (2010-12-30). "Krugman In Support of
the Hangover Theory?". Retrieved 2011-08-10.
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 22:02:15 UTC
Permalink
On Dec 17, 1:48 pm, da pickle <***@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:

<snip still MORE ad hominem attacks on Krugman>

Wow, you have really gone on tilt. Are you ever going to address the
substance of Krugman's column, or are you just going to continue
irrelevant ad hominem attacks?


William Coleman (ramashiva)
da pickle
2011-12-17 22:09:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
Contradictions
Krugman has garnered a reputation for contradicting himself on many
occasions. When documenting such inconsistencies several writers have
made references to such an occurrence being commonplace: "It's not
newsworthy when Paul Krugman contradicts himself."[37] "Not that you
needed any more evidence that New York Times columnist Paul Krugman is a
flip-flopping charlatan..."[38] "This just in: New York Times columnist
Paul Krugman is a raging hypocrite. You'll be shocked to find out, I'm
sure."[39]
In addition to the instance reported in the WSJ (see above), a single
article published in the conservative online magazine The American
Thinker documents Krugman making contradictory statements in a wide
variety of topics. He is documented as stating that when deficits are
high interest rates are low, and when governments run up a deficit,
interest rates rise. He argued that higher national debt and spending
were bad for people early in their careers, as they would have to pay
for it later in life, and nearly twenty-five years later, he argues that
the national debt is not a problem, as it never needs to be paid off.
Krugman argued it is not the debt that matters, but rather the
debt-to-GDP ratio. But in an open letter to Alan Greenspan he asserted,
"...you obviously realize that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is a highly
misleading number." He has argued that Social Security is sustainable
and unsustainable, opposed government-run health care before supporting
government-run health care, and opposed the bailout of Fannie Mae before
congratulating the government for the bailout of Fannie Mae.[40]
Krugman has stated labor unions and higher wages cause unemployment, as
well as stating labor unions create a stable middle class, and lower
wages have a contractionary effect on the economy (which is
characterized in part by unemployment). He has argued that governments
do not cause recessions and are not responsible for business cycles, but
he also blames the Bush administration for the current recession.
Krugman claimed that nothing the government has done has had an impact
on the economy, and states that government actions are like using a
water pistol to shoot an elephant -- but he also claims that "big
government" saved the economy. He declared that workers' fears of losing
jobs to workers in China and India due to globalization aren't
irrational, when he earlier stated that those who blamed the global
economy for the loss of jobs were "silly."[40]
Conservative blogger and political commentator Michelle Malkin noted
that in April 2011, Krugman assailed entitlement reform advocates,
lamenting that "the fervor with which Washington types call for raising
eligibility ages is a ‘tell’: it shows how disconnected they are from
the way the other half lives (and dies)" and called life expectancy
"more and more a class-related issue." But in 1996 he called similar
proposals (such as raising the age of eligibility for federal
entitlements) "sensible".[38]
In 2007, Krugman berated then-Senator Barack Obama for worrying about
the future of Social Security, stating Obama had been misled by "decades
of scare-mongering about Social Security’s future from conservative
ideologues." Economist and former Chairman of the Council of Economic
Advisors Greg Mankiw responded by stating that "Paul's interpretation
seems to be based on either a faulty memory or an especially inclusive
definition of what constitutes a conservative ideologue", pointing out
that not only did Democratic President Bill Clinton voice similar
concerns, but that he was under advisement of well-known economist and
non-conservative Edward Gramlich, whom Krugman had in the past praised
as being particularly prescient.[41] In addition, less than a month
prior, Mankiw had previously pointed out Krugman's contradiction on
Social Security when he quoted from an interview in which Krugman stated
it is "one of the best" federal government programs in terms of funding,
and that it's not for certain the program has a problem. However, as
Mankiw shows, Krugman himself stated ten years earlier that crisis
loomed ahead when the baby boomers would start to retire around year
2010.[42]
In an open letter to The New York Times Donald Boudreaux pointed out
that Krugman suggested trade with low-wage countries poses real problems
for high-wage America, despite years earlier penning a paper stating
that wages are determined by worker productivity.[43]
Columnist Tom Bevan asked in 2009 how Krugman reconciles a call for
economic stimulus while at the same time arguing that additional
environmental regulations and taxes are needed to avert the "utter
catastrophe", outlining that stricter environmental policies such as
carbon taxes, capping emissions, and additional regulations come at a
cost to the economy.[44]
Economist Robert Murphy has documented so many contradictions made by
Krugman that he has coined the term "Krugman Kontradiction" or "Klassic
Krugman".[37] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [50]
37.↑ 37.0 37.1 Murphy, Robert P. (2011-03-03). "Caught: Krugman's
Shifting Arguments". Ludwig von Mises Institute. Retrieved 2011-08-10.
38.↑ 38.0 38.1 Malkin, Michelle (2011-04-26). "Paul Krugman: For
entitlement reform before he was against it". Retrieved 2011-08-10.
39.↑ Markay, Lachlan (2011-04-26), "Paul Krugman Favored Raising
Retirement Age Until GOP Proposed It", NewsBusters, retrieved 2011-08-10
40.↑ 40.0 40.1 Kumar, Arvind (2010-06-23), "Paul Krugman, the
Self-Contradicting Economist", The American Thinker, archived from the
original on 2011-07-21, retrieved 2011-08-10
41.↑ Mankiw, Greg (2007-11-16). "In Search of Ideologues". Retrieved
2011-08-10.
42.↑ Mankiw, Greg (2007-10-28). "Krugman vs Obama". Retrieved 2011-08-10.
43.↑ Boudreaux, Donald J. (2008-01-05). "Strange Case of Dr. K and Mr.
K". Retrieved 2011-08-10.
44.↑ Bevan, Tom (2009-07-13), "Krugman's Contradiction",
RealClearPolitics, retrieved 2011-08-10
45.↑ Murphy, Robert P. (2010-06-10). "A Krugman Kontradiction?".
Retrieved 2011-08-10.
46.↑ Murphy, Robert P. (2010-11-23). "Yet Another Krugman
Kontradiction". Retrieved 2011-08-10.
47.↑ Murphy, Robert P. (2011-03-30). "Yet Another Krugman
Kontradiction?". Retrieved 2011-08-10.
48.↑ Murphy, Robert P. (2011-05-19). "Klassic Krugman Kontradiction".
Retrieved 2011-08-10.
49.↑ Murphy, Robert P. (2010-07-07). "Another Krugman Kontradiction?".
Retrieved 2011-08-10.
50.↑ 50.0 50.1 Murphy, Robert P. (2010-12-30). "Krugman In Support of
the Hangover Theory?". Retrieved 2011-08-10.
Still not comment, Bill ... just snip and run? It is not like you to
avoid all this evidence.
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 22:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Still not comment, Bill ... just snip and run?  It is not like you to
avoid all this evidence.
My comment is that you are engaging in ad hominem attacks, rather than
addressing the substance of Krugman's column.

In case you aren't aware, ad hominem arguments are logical fallacies.

Why don't you stop trying to change the subject and address the
substance of Krugman's column?


William Coleman (ramashiva)
da pickle
2011-12-17 22:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by da pickle
Still not comment, Bill ... just snip and run? It is not like you to
avoid all this evidence.
My comment is that you are engaging in ad hominem attacks, rather than
addressing the substance of Krugman's column.
In case you aren't aware, ad hominem arguments are logical fallacies.
Why don't you stop trying to change the subject and address the
substance of Krugman's column?
The substance is there is no substance there. Haven't you even read the
evidence? Avoidance is not in your nature.
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 23:14:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Why don't you stop trying to change the subject and address the
substance of Krugman's column?
The substance is there is no substance there.
Fuck you, asshole. When you are cornered in an argument, you just
pretend there is nothing to argue about.
Post by da pickle
 Haven't you even read the evidence?
Evidence of what???

That Austrian economists predict that increasing the money supply
causes price inflation?

That the money supply has tripled?

That inflation over the last three years has averaged 1.5%?

That is the only evidence that is relevant to the discussion.
Post by da pickle
 Avoidance is not in your nature.
Avoidance is obviously in your nature, because you are avoiding all
discussion of Krugman's column.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
da pickle
2011-12-17 23:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Why don't you stop trying to change the subject and address the
substance of Krugman's column?
The substance is there is no substance there.
Fuck you, asshole. When you are cornered in an argument, you just
pretend there is nothing to argue about.
And you cut the argument and pretend it wasn't cut. Who is that man
behind the curtain.
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by da pickle
Haven't you even read the evidence?
Evidence of what???
That Austrian economists predict that increasing the money supply
causes price inflation?
That the money supply has tripled?
That inflation over the last three years has averaged 1.5%?
That is the only evidence that is relevant to the discussion.
You are so funny ... you said you would listen to me if I had won a
Nobel Prize and then you say you will not listen to a Nobel prize winner
if he disagrees with you. No evidence ... you are suffering, Bill, just
let it go. Wipe the foam away and have a drink.
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by da pickle
Avoidance is not in your nature.
Avoidance is obviously in your nature, because you are avoiding all
discussion of Krugman's column.
I am avoiding your assertion that Krugman is a good source of
information and I have provided more than enough evidence from more than
enough people to wipe your perceived "bitchslap" into oblivion.

And yet, you are still a prince and are to be commended on your choice
of Newt as a candidate. He is not the worst thing that could happen to
the country during the next election.
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 23:53:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Why don't you stop trying to change the subject and address the
substance of Krugman's column?
The substance is there is no substance there.
Fuck you, asshole.  When you are cornered in an argument, you just
pretend there is nothing to argue about.
And you cut the argument and pretend it wasn't cut.  Who is that man
behind the curtain.
I didn't cut any argument except ad hominem attacks, which are logical
fallacies. I see no reason to respond to logical fallacies.
Post by da pickle
  Haven't you even read the evidence?
Evidence of what???
That Austrian economists predict that increasing the money supply
causes price inflation?
That the money supply has tripled?
That inflation over the last three years has averaged 1.5%?
That is the only evidence that is relevant to the discussion.
You are so funny ... you said you would listen to me if I had won a
Nobel Prize and then you say you will not listen to a Nobel prize winner
if he disagrees with you.
Of course I never said anything like that. What I said was I won't
listen to a Nobel prize winner whose theories have been exploded by
objective reality.
 No evidence ... you are suffering, Bill, just
let it go.  Wipe the foam away and have a drink.
Go fuck yourself, you lying sleazeball.
Post by da pickle
  Avoidance is not in your nature.
Avoidance is obviously in your nature, because you are avoiding all
discussion of Krugman's column.
I am avoiding your assertion that Krugman is a good source of
information
Still another strawman. Please point out where I said Krugman is a
good source of information. The facts presented in his column are
common knowledge. His reliability as a source of information is not
an issue.
and I have provided more than enough evidence from more than
enough people to wipe your perceived "bitchslap" into oblivion.
What is your major malfunction??? You have presented nothing but ad
hominem attacks. Ad hominem attacks are logical fallacies.

Seriously, asshole. Go the fuck away and leave me the fuck alone.
Then fuck off and die.

Your performance in this thread is a good illustration of why I and
many others consider you to be the biggest asshole on RGP.

Once you get called on your bullshit, you resort to lying, strawman
arguments, and ad hominem attacks.

Meanwhile, you refuse to answer the question --

WHERE IS THE INFLATION???


William Coleman (ramashiva)
Pepe Papon
2011-12-19 09:49:32 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:37:57 -0600, da pickle
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Avoidance is obviously in your nature, because you are avoiding all
discussion of Krugman's column.
I am avoiding your assertion that Krugman is a good source of
information and I have provided more than enough evidence from more than
enough people to wipe your perceived "bitchslap" into oblivion.
http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/adhom/adhom.html
--
~ Seth Jackson

MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
Pepe Papon
2011-12-19 08:31:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:30:32 -0600, da pickle
Post by da pickle
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by da pickle
Still not comment, Bill ... just snip and run? It is not like you to
avoid all this evidence.
My comment is that you are engaging in ad hominem attacks, rather than
addressing the substance of Krugman's column.
In case you aren't aware, ad hominem arguments are logical fallacies.
Why don't you stop trying to change the subject and address the
substance of Krugman's column?
The substance is there is no substance there. Haven't you even read the
evidence? Avoidance is not in your nature.
That's hardly an argument. You've said exactly nothing. What,
specifically, do you disagree with in the article?
--
~ Seth Jackson

MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
mo_ntresor
2011-12-17 22:36:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Still not comment, Bill ... just snip and run?  It is not like you to
avoid all this evidence.
My comment is that you are engaging in ad hominem attacks, rather than
addressing the substance of Krugman's column.
In case you aren't aware, ad hominem arguments are logical fallacies.
Why don't you stop trying to change the subject and address the
substance of Krugman's column?
inflation isn't rampant despite a tripling of the monetary base because
people haven't lost faith in the dollar yet. no economic theory has been
exploded. the crisis is not over. time will tell.

mo_ntresor

-------- 
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-17 23:05:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by mo_ntresor
inflation isn't rampant despite a tripling of the monetary base because
people haven't lost faith in the dollar yet.
Well, that's not the only reason. When there is high unemployment and
idle production capacity, increasing the money supply will not cause
price inflation, since more goods can be produced at the same price.
The velocity of money is also important. When corporations and banks
just sit on large cash hoards, there is no inflationary pressure.
Post by mo_ntresor
 no economic theory has been exploded.
Oh bullshit. When you make predictions about what will happen and the
events you predict don't happen, your theory is exploded. Peter
Schiff, an exponent of Austrian economics and a Ron Paul advisor, has
been predicting hyper inflation for years.
Post by mo_ntresor
 the crisis is not over.  time will tell.
Uh huh. Chris Robin and the hysterical drama queens at Zero Hedge
have been predicting the imminent collapse of the world economic
system for over three years. I am not impressed.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
mo_ntresor
2011-12-19 13:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by mo_ntresor
inflation isn't rampant despite a tripling of the monetary base because
people haven't lost faith in the dollar yet.
Well, that's not the only reason. When there is high unemployment and
idle production capacity, increasing the money supply will not cause
price inflation, since more goods can be produced at the same price.
The velocity of money is also important. When corporations and banks
just sit on large cash hoards, there is no inflationary pressure.
Post by mo_ntresor
 no economic theory has been exploded.
Oh bullshit. When you make predictions about what will happen and the
events you predict don't happen, your theory is exploded. Peter
Schiff, an exponent of Austrian economics and a Ron Paul advisor, has
been predicting hyper inflation for years.
Post by mo_ntresor
 the crisis is not over.  time will tell.
Uh huh. Chris Robin and the hysterical drama queens at Zero Hedge
have been predicting the imminent collapse of the world economic
system for over three years. I am not impressed.
but you were investing in gold. if krugman had shorted gold per his
theoretical recommendation, he'd have perfectly faded ron paul's position
.. and lost his goddamn ass.

mo_ntresor

-------- 
ChrisRobin
2011-12-19 20:24:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Uh huh. Chris Robin and the hysterical drama queens at Zero Hedge
have been predicting the imminent collapse of the world economic
system for over three years. I am not impressed.
Yes, we have. Nobody's been proven wrong yet, just consistently premature.
:)

________________________________________________________________________ 
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-19 20:44:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by ChrisRobin
Uh huh.  Chris Robin and the hysterical drama queens at Zero Hedge
have been predicting the imminent collapse of the world economic
system for over three years.  I am not impressed.
Yes, we have. Nobody's been proven wrong yet, just consistently premature.
LOL @ Zero Hedge.

There is some good information and good articles, but the main
bloggers are hysterical drama queens and Ron Paul sycophants.

The people who comment there are an assortment of Ron Paul sycophants,
9/11 truthers, New World Order conspiracy theorists, and Jew haters.


William Coleman (ramashiva)
mo_ntresor
2011-12-19 20:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Yes, we have. Nobody's been proven wrong yet, just consistently premature..
There is some good information and good articles, but the main
bloggers are hysterical drama queens and Ron Paul sycophants.
The people who comment there are an assortment of Ron Paul sycophants,
9/11 truthers, New World Order conspiracy theorists, and Jew haters.
all that makes for a fun read.

mo_ntresor

____________________________________________________________________ 
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-19 21:20:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by mo_ntresor
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Yes, we have. Nobody's been proven wrong yet, just consistently premature..
There is some good information and good articles, but the main
bloggers are hysterical drama queens and Ron Paul sycophants.
The people who comment there are an assortment of Ron Paul sycophants,
9/11 truthers, New World Order conspiracy theorists, and Jew haters.
all that makes for a fun read.
Here is a typical ZH comment from today --

"44 presidents = all links and descendants of the Merovingian
Bloodline.

"LEaders of the US are not elected - they are born

"So, no - not nut jobs - but rather - Luciferian Sun-worshippers who
think it is there divine right to rule over us.

"Yes, it is way more serious than most people think"


William Coleman (ramashiva)
Pepe Papon
2011-12-19 08:49:37 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:09:19 -0600, da pickle
Post by da pickle
Still not comment, Bill ... just snip and run? It is not like you to
avoid all this evidence.
http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/adhom/adhom.html
--
~ Seth Jackson

MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
Pepe Papon
2011-12-19 08:49:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 15:48:11 -0600, da pickle
Post by da pickle
Contradictions
Krugman has garnered a reputation for contradicting himself on many
occasions. When documenting such inconsistencies several writers have
made references to such an occurrence being commonplace: "It's not
newsworthy when Paul Krugman contradicts himself."[37] "Not that you
needed any more evidence that New York Times columnist Paul Krugman is a
flip-flopping charlatan..."[38] "This just in: New York Times columnist
Paul Krugman is a raging hypocrite. You'll be shocked to find out, I'm
sure."[39]
http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/adhom/adhom.html
--
~ Seth Jackson

MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
d***@hotmail.com
2011-12-18 00:35:30 UTC
Permalink
Krugman has been proven correct by history on the 3 most important
issues of the past decade:


1) He called out Greenspan in Jan of 2001 for testifying in support
of the Bush tax-cuts:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/28/opinion/reckonings-et-tu-alan.html?scp=1&sq=et%20tu%20alan&st=cse


2) He called out Bush in Feb of 2003 for the need to invade Iraq:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/11/opinion/the-wimps-of-war.html?scp=26&sq=krugman%20on%20bush%20invasion%20of%20iraq&st=cse

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/25/opinion/threats-promises-and-lies.html?scp=1&sq=threats+promises+and+lies&st=nyt


3) He called out Obama in Jan of 2009 by saying the stimulus was not
going to be big enough

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/opinion/09krugman.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss



That's a pretty good track record in my book!
Steam
2011-12-18 23:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@hotmail.com
Krugman has been proven correct by history on the 3 most important
1) He called out Greenspan in Jan of 2001 for testifying in support
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/28/opinion/reckonings-et-tu-alan.html?scp=1&sq=et%20tu%20alan&st=cse
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/11/opinion/the-wimps-of-war.html?scp=26&sq=krugman%20on%20bush%20invasion%20of%20iraq&st=cse
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/25/opinion/threats-promises-and-lies.html?scp=1&sq=threats+promises+and+lies&st=nyt
Post by d***@hotmail.com
3) He called out Obama in Jan of 2009 by saying the stimulus was not
going to be big enough
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/opinion/09krugman.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
Post by d***@hotmail.com
That's a pretty good track record in my book!
Except that he was only right about # 2

____________________________________________________________________ 
Pepe Papon
2011-12-19 09:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@hotmail.com
Post by d***@hotmail.com
Krugman has been proven correct by history on the 3 most important
1) He called out Greenspan in Jan of 2001 for testifying in support
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/28/opinion/reckonings-et-tu-alan.html?scp=1&sq=et%20tu%20alan&st=cse
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/11/opinion/the-wimps-of-war.html?scp=26&sq=krugman%20on%20bush%20invasion%20of%20iraq&st=cse
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/25/opinion/threats-promises-and-lies.html?scp=1&sq=threats+promises+and+lies&st=nyt
Post by d***@hotmail.com
3) He called out Obama in Jan of 2009 by saying the stimulus was not
going to be big enough
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/opinion/09krugman.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
Post by d***@hotmail.com
That's a pretty good track record in my book!
Except that he was only right about # 2
Really? So you don't think the deficit is a problem? Or maybe you
do think that the deficit is a problem but that the Bush tax cuts
aren't a big part of it. The first way, you contradict your
right-wing ideology. The second way, you contradict reality.
--
~ Seth Jackson

MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
mo_ntresor
2011-12-19 14:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pepe Papon
Post by Steam
Except that he was only right about # 2
Really? So you don't think the deficit is a problem? Or maybe you
do think that the deficit is a problem but that the Bush tax cuts
aren't a big part of it. The first way, you contradict your
right-wing ideology. The second way, you contradict reality.
idiot.

mo_ntresor

-------- 
Pepe Papon
2011-12-20 02:36:57 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 06:09:36 -0800, "mo_ntresor"
Post by mo_ntresor
Post by Pepe Papon
Post by Steam
Except that he was only right about # 2
Really? So you don't think the deficit is a problem? Or maybe you
do think that the deficit is a problem but that the Bush tax cuts
aren't a big part of it. The first way, you contradict your
right-wing ideology. The second way, you contradict reality.
idiot.
mo_ntresor
This type of deep, insightful analysis is hard to argue with.
--
~ Seth Jackson

MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
Pepe Papon
2011-12-19 08:34:52 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:05:51 -0800 (PST), Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
So here we are, three years later. How’s it going? Inflation has
fluctuated, but, at the end of the day, consumer prices have risen
just 4.5 percent, meaning an average annual inflation rate of only 1.5
percent. Who could have predicted that printing so much money would
cause so little inflation? Well, I could. And did. And so did others
who understood the Keynesian economics Mr. Paul reviles. But Mr.
Paul’s supporters continue to claim, somehow, that he has been right
about everything.
I wish this article included his explanation of why predictions of
inflation haven't come to pass. I'd like to know his opinion on how
much monetary expansion the economy can safely absorb and why.
--
~ Seth Jackson

MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
Robert Ladd
2011-12-19 19:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pepe Papon
On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:05:51 -0800 (PST), Wilhelm Kuhlmann
So here we are, three years later. How's it going? Inflation has
fluctuated, but, at the end of the day, consumer prices have risen
just 4.5 percent, meaning an average annual inflation rate of only 1.5
percent. Who could have predicted that printing so much money would
cause so little inflation? Well, I could. And did. And so did others
who understood the Keynesian economics Mr. Paul reviles. But Mr.
Paul's supporters continue to claim, somehow, that he has been right
about everything.
I wish this article included his explanation of why predictions of
inflation haven't come to pass. I'd like to know his opinion on how
much monetary expansion the economy can safely absorb and why.
--
~ Seth Jackson
MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
The expansion of the money supply isn't done in a vacuum so that any
inflationary effect can always be readily observed. Many factors can
mitigate, for differing periods of time, the effects of the additional
money. To conclude that additional money in the supply isn't inflationary
solely on whether the ever changing government calculations and indicators
ticked up or down is really short-sighted. Money created, but not
immediately circulated, as buying power, will have less or no immediate
effect on inflation, but the fact that it is available to compete with the
previous money will at some point manifest itself as inflation.

If you can't understand that more money (money created out of thin air)
chasing the same goods and services will create higher prices or less
purchasing value for those dollars when going after those goods and
services, then you might think of checking out the concept of *supply and
demand*.

Robert Ladd
Clave
2011-12-19 19:22:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Ladd
Post by Pepe Papon
On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:05:51 -0800 (PST), Wilhelm Kuhlmann
So here we are, three years later. How's it going? Inflation has
fluctuated, but, at the end of the day, consumer prices have risen
just 4.5 percent, meaning an average annual inflation rate of only 1.5
percent. Who could have predicted that printing so much money would
cause so little inflation? Well, I could. And did. And so did others
who understood the Keynesian economics Mr. Paul reviles. But Mr.
Paul's supporters continue to claim, somehow, that he has been right
about everything.
I wish this article included his explanation of why predictions of
inflation haven't come to pass. I'd like to know his opinion on how
much monetary expansion the economy can safely absorb and why.
--
~ Seth Jackson
MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
The expansion of the money supply isn't done in a vacuum so that any
inflationary effect can always be readily observed. Many factors can
mitigate, for differing periods of time, the effects of the additional
money. To conclude that additional money in the supply isn't inflationary
solely on whether the ever changing government calculations and indicators
ticked up or down is really short-sighted. Money created, but not
immediately circulated, as buying power, will have less or no immediate
effect on inflation, but the fact that it is available to compete with the
previous money will at some point manifest itself as inflation.
Simply restating the Austrian POV doesn't make it any more valid.

Jim
Wilhelm Kuhlmann
2011-12-19 19:46:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clave
Simply restating the Austrian POV doesn't make it any more valid.
"If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."

-- Joseph Goebbels


William Coleman (ramashiva)
Robert Ladd
2011-12-19 23:46:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by Clave
Simply restating the Austrian POV doesn't make it any more valid.
"If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."
-- Joseph Goebbels
William Coleman (ramashiva)
If all the false assumptions in economics were the planks used to build our
homes, the first woodpecker that came along would send us all back to
aves. --- Robert Ladd 12/19/2011

Robert Ladd
Robert Ladd
2011-12-20 02:26:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Ladd
Post by Wilhelm Kuhlmann
Post by Clave
Simply restating the Austrian POV doesn't make it any more valid.
"If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."
-- Joseph Goebbels
William Coleman (ramashiva)
If all the false assumptions in economics were the planks used to build
our homes, the first woodpecker that came along would send us all back to
aves. --- Robert Ladd 12/19/2011
Robert Ladd
I'm not sure where that 'c' disappeared to, but I'm pretty sure we won't all
live on avenues.

Robert Ladd
Robert Ladd
2011-12-19 22:44:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clave
Post by Robert Ladd
Post by Pepe Papon
On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:05:51 -0800 (PST), Wilhelm Kuhlmann
So here we are, three years later. How's it going? Inflation has
fluctuated, but, at the end of the day, consumer prices have risen
just 4.5 percent, meaning an average annual inflation rate of only 1.5
percent. Who could have predicted that printing so much money would
cause so little inflation? Well, I could. And did. And so did others
who understood the Keynesian economics Mr. Paul reviles. But Mr.
Paul's supporters continue to claim, somehow, that he has been right
about everything.
I wish this article included his explanation of why predictions of
inflation haven't come to pass. I'd like to know his opinion on how
much monetary expansion the economy can safely absorb and why.
--
~ Seth Jackson
MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
The expansion of the money supply isn't done in a vacuum so that any
inflationary effect can always be readily observed. Many factors can
mitigate, for differing periods of time, the effects of the additional
money. To conclude that additional money in the supply isn't
inflationary solely on whether the ever changing government calculations
and indicators ticked up or down is really short-sighted. Money created,
but not immediately circulated, as buying power, will have less or no
immediate effect on inflation, but the fact that it is available to
compete with the previous money will at some point manifest itself as
inflation.
Simply restating the Austrian POV doesn't make it any more valid.
Jim
Simply ignoring the truth when it doesn't fit your expectations doesn't make
it any less valid.

Robert Ladd
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